Dr. Tanya Faisal is a doctor-lawyer turned homeschooling mom of 3 delicious hooligans, ages 16, 13, and 11. She shares her homeschooling journey at Project Happy Home on YouTube and Instagram (projecthappyhome), where you can find videos about secular homeschooling, ADHD & 2e parenting, and an essentialist approach to all things midlife. You can also find her sharing bookish and planner geek content on Tiktok @feralbluestockingreads. After a decade of homeschooling, she is about to return to the classroom as a 7th grade science teacher this coming school year.

Show Chapters

00:00 Introduction 01:40 Meet Tanya 03:33 NC Requirements & Standardized Testing 05:17 How Tanya Found Homeschooling 08:42 ADHD & Learning Your Child 12:11 Reassessment & Self-Care 19:24 Tanya's Career Path 20:58 Trying Public School 26:20 Advice for New Homeschoolers 32:54 Labels, Mindset & Flexibility 46:38 Curriculum Choices 52:32 Avoiding Curriculum Overwhelm 01:06:52 Biggest Challenges 01:09:38 Schooling Multiple Children 01:12:02 Biggest Surprises About Homeschooling 01:15:37 Connect with Tanya

Read Alouds

Read Aloud books are essentially what the name implies. They are books that are read aloud together as a family where you are listening and discussing the books together. Audio books count! We often listened to audio books together. Any book can be used as a Read Aloud. I like to read aloud books that are slightly greater than my child's reading ability (I use lexile scores for this,) to continue to enhance vocabulary. You can find some of our favorite Read Aloud's below.

Reverse Planning

Reverse planning is when the learning activities of the day are written at the end of the day in the planner labeled for that day. It is a great way to see how much learning is actually happening in your day to day. It is also a good practice if you are feeling frustrated that your daily planning is not happening, so you can get a realistic idea of the amount of learning actually taking place. Tanya has a great YouTube video on reverse planning below.

Unschooling

Unschooling is a bit of a misnomer. It is not, as its name implies, not doing any school. Instead it is following your child's interest in facilitating their education. Many families will strew different items and resources, observe their children, and have discussions with their children to find their children's interest, and then further their studies by helping them find more resources for learning. Strewing is when resources or 'invitations for play' such as logic puzzles, toys, games, or potential activities are left in prominent areas of the house where a homeschool child might frequent to allow them to engage with the material or not. Unschooling can look very different such as internships with community members, building or creating on their own or can look very typical such as using a textbook to learn about an interest that a child has. The defining factor in the unschooing philosophy is a child's autonomy in a child-led educational journey. The parent does a lot of work finding resources, providing opportunities, and facilitating activities to support that journey.

Scheduling Types

Block Schedule

Block scheduling is where a particular subject is the main focus of study for several weeks before moving onto a new subject. Waldorf and Unit Studies are pedagogies that use block scheduling.

Waldorf Schools Rotation of Blocks for K-8th

from Jamie York

from The Art of Homeschooling

Loop Schedule

A loop schedule is when different subjects of similar time requirements are placed in a list as opposed to assigned to a day. Each day, the next thing on the list is done. This allows each subject to be done with the given weight it is assigned in the loop scheduling. For instance, if you want both history and science done about 2 to 3 times a week and they take roughly the same amount of time, you can place them on a loop schedule, doing history one day, and science the next, regardless of what day it is. This ensures that both are being done, particularly if there is a day of the week that you are more likely to miss school than another.

There are a couple of important aspects of doing a loop schedule to consider. One is that amount of time that subject usually takes. We spend roughly the same amount of time on history, science, and language arts, so those could be in the same rotation. Artist study for us was only five minutes, so it was not a good fit for this rotation, because it did not take nearly the same amount of time. Another loop of similar time frames could be created with art study such as form drawing, recitation, or copy work.

The second aspect of loop scheduling is the desired amount of time. If you wanted to do language arts more frequently than history or science, you might place language arts in the rotation two or three times such as

• science
• language arts
• history
• language arts

Transcript

Della (00:01) Tanya, welcome. I'm so glad you're here.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (00:04) Hi, how are you? I'm so happy to be here.

Della (00:08) I have been starting the podcast with guests saying where they are from and the homeschooling requirements for that area. Can you do that for us?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (00:16) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, so we're in North Carolina and the requirements are really easy here. There's basically just a requirement for the instructor to have a high school diploma equivalent. You submit that, the ages of your kids, and you're pretty much registered. You also have to submit proof of immunization unless you have a medical or religious exemption, very similar to public school here. And you need to have

proof on hand for yourself in case of review of a standardized exam every year. And you have a choice of options. Like what standardized exam you take is really up to you, but you should keep it for at least one year in case someone calls you up. But I've never heard of that personally.

Della (00:56) What standardized testing did you choose?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (01:00) We use the CAT. We get it through academic excellence because it's easy and not the test, but the whole process is easy. Like academic excellence makes it seamless. It's an inexpensive exam. The kids take it at home, particularly with my eldest who had ADHD. I appreciated that they had the untimed option also available. that's what we've done every year. I like having the standard measure honestly of what it is. We realized nobody can spell for a couple of years in a row.

Della (01:24) Spelling's not my greatest strength either. I don't I don't judge anyone for their lack of spelling ability. We did get a curricula for that

Tanya @projecthappyhome (01:28) Yeah.

Yes, we did too. I

I thought it wasn't as bad as it was. So sometimes standardized testing can really come in there and show you things that you had not seen. Because my kids know how to spell going forward, like to spell a word correctly, but to recognize misspellings was not their strength.

Della (01:49) did you find yourself homeschooling? What did that path look like for you?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (01:53) So we had not planned to homeschool at all. It was not on our radar at all. When my eldest was in kindergarten, I was not particularly pleased with how they were treating him. He had started to exhibit a lot of signs that would be similar to ADHD behaviors. It didn't help that he was a very early reader, so he knew how to read pretty fluently when he was four.

not through any effort of my own. He was just one of those kids. He just understood how to read. it made kindergarten very difficult for him because he was very cheerful, very social, loved talking all the time, did not want to do listing alphabet words around the room. At that point, he could read chapter books. I think, felt like he was in like a daycare and other kids were just

having instruction, but he was there for a good time. The accommodations they would have made for him were isolating in my mind, that he would have to sit by himself, that he would have less of a requirement to do the work to completion. I thought, okay, let me take this kid out for a year, teach him how to sit on the line, teach him how school behaviors should work. And

quickly in the beginning of first grade when we started homeschooling, I realized this kid was not going to sit on the line. The line was not the problem. There was no real problem. He really enjoyed moving. He really enjoyed talking. He really enjoyed sharing his ideas. He was such a social kid that I was less concerned about missing the daily interaction with other little kids his age.

Like he talked to everybody we encountered everywhere all the time. I was still working part time at that point and I had my other two kids who were three and one. it became a lot of work. We moved before he went into second grade into the middle of nowhere and the girls were still in a little Montessori preschool, but I felt

really stretched thin at that point. I was working part-time, but also homeschooling. And by the time they all came home from half-day preschool, I was never sleeping anymore. I was doing my work at night. It was a whole mess of work. then I decided, you know what? Let's just homeschool all these kids. We're out in the boonies. We don't really have better options. Let me make a choice and move forward in that direction. And that's what I did. I started sharing about homeschooling very early.

because I was so grateful to the people who did share YouTube and social media that I thought, let me at least share about what we're doing, what we're using, like people's flip throughs, people's honest appraisals, especially social media back then, before it was all pretty flat lays and things. was really a lot of people saying this worked and these are the types of rewards I used. And this really motivated my kid to learn multiplication things like,

jumping on the stairs for answers and those simple tips that you could do in your own house without buying anything. That was so valuable to me. I wanted to share some of those things, especially having a kid with ADHD, like how we were managing, getting through our days and making it enjoyable for both of us.

Della (05:01) Let's talk about

that a little bit. What accommodations, if any, did you do for having a child with ADHD?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (05:10) I think very quickly I realized that setting things up like a school was the wrong way to go because that's what I did initially. And I think that's what a lot of us do initially. I think a lot of us are very enthusiastic about our children and very enthusiastic about learning and teaching and books and all the things, the accoutrement of school. And I loved buying those things, things that I had seen in kindergarten classrooms and first grade classrooms

that isn't where the focus should lie, particularly when you have a neuro-atypical kid. I think that it really helped to learn him rather than other people's and other formats at the beginning to really spend some time focusing on who that kid is. not a monolith, right? Not all neuro-typical kids are the same. Not all neuro-atypical kids are the same. I always say we were all on a spectrum of

personalities and desires and learning styles. It's really just these unique individuals that we're grouping into letters, I think that really trying to learn your kid and having discussions with your kid, even when they're small, is very, very helpful. did you like what we just did? Did you like going on this walk? Or am I just thinking you should like this?

Did you like sitting down for this? Some kids like things that you think would be incredibly boring. Some kids who have ADHD like things that people would say, ADHD kids can't sit still for that long and do this thing. But they might love that particular workbook or that particular building activity, and they might like the direction associated with it. So I would say experiment with learning who your kid is, like at the beginning of homeschooling.

whether you have a neurotypical kid or neurotypical kid, learn your kid, also learn who you are in that space. Because I think both things are really, really important. As a teacher, you are just beginning, you are just learning how this goes. teaching is both a science and an art. I definitely recommend, getting advice from people who've been in it longer than you.

learning from the books and the podcasts the YouTube channels, but really in on yourself. I think at the beginning, there's this urge to layer on like a costume of who we think we should be, wait and see until our kid becomes this particular person, this particular flower that we're aiming for, But I think it's much more of being observant of your own experience.

with this child, with this group of individuals, and really observant of who you are in reactions and things like that. You are the adult in the room. When you are with your kids 24-7, it is a shocking change from when you only see them at the end of the day. I say this as someone who worked full-time and came home and honestly was a pretty perfect parent, it's not

Della (07:51) most definitely is.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (07:58) as hard and I truly, I'm not saying that anybody who works has it easier because it definitely isn't. I'm just saying that when you have a limited amount of time with anyone, whether it's your spouse or your friends or your kids or your parents, a limited amount of time is an easier frame of time to self-manage and self-regulate. And when that time becomes infinite with no beginning and no end, I think that you are going to have moments

Della (08:23) Right.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (08:28) where you lose it all together. I think that's something to accept. I think if you are human, your kids will melt down, you will melt down.

Della (08:39) Yeah, where you walk into the bathroom, close the door and say, I'm going to send everybody to public school tomorrow. We're going to re-enroll. Yeah. There are two, three things that you said there that caught my attention. One is the reassessment, which I think is really necessary on the regular for homeschoolers.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (08:40) Yeah, the pantry was my favorite place.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Della (09:02) This for me happens automatically, but for a lot of people, they need certain triggers that are like, okay, now I should do a reassessment. Now I should think of this. Anytime you hit a block, some reassessment is helpful. It doesn't mean that you drop that curricula or you stopped studying that concept, but that you just take time to reflect on what's working and what's not working.

And I think your involving your children in that conversation is also really profound. we did that also. So you get a better sense of what works for them in addition to what works for you. And the second thing that I think is really important in what you said is not to lose yourself because

Tanya @projecthappyhome (09:53) Yeah.

Della (09:58) your needs and your personality are a large part of that homeschooling equation. And it's important that you include that in your homeschooling. You want to talk a little bit about that?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (10:13) I think so much of the emphasis of homeschooling is placed on children. And that's wonderful because really the reason we're doing this is so that they can have the best childhood, the best fertile ground for becoming lifelong learners. All of our intentions are beautiful. I think it is important to realize you are a human being and…

you are in this room with them, you're in this life with them, and you need to take the time to cultivate yourself at the same time, like emotionally, intellectually, all of these things, because otherwise you will start to fray at the edges, and that won't be good for anyone. I always tell my kids, I'm exactly as old a mom as you are a kid, so give me grace, because we are both learning at the same time how to do this together.

And I'm even younger as a homeschool parent. I think involving kids in the decision making and letting them know that you are still a growing being also, take some of the pressure off of them as well. saying, I think this went well, but I'm not sure if this went well. And I'm sorry that I reacted this way for this. I think today was a great day. Like positive reflections.

negative reflections, all of them. I think it encourages kids to, to think, this person is also thinking I could have done that better, and that's okay. That, that it's okay to make mistakes. Because the other thing I always tell them is mistakes are proof that we are learning. That quote resonated with me so deeply in every aspect of life, because I don't think people understand who are not homeschooling, how rich.

your life is when you're homeschooling, but also how many opportunities there are for mistakes, because your life is so full and so rich and there's going to be so many experiences with your kids. it's a stretching and pulling experience of who you are as a person, you, can let it break you sometimes, I think if you keep cycling towards something you're not.

something your kids are not. But if you give yourself some grace and some plasticity to go in the direction that feels the most right, while also keeping your heading towards your ultimate destination, I think that's the goal. You don't have to stay rigidly towards your original heading, but I think it's important to keep your heading in mind. And then flow, like a river does, rather than a road.

Della (12:39) right

to make adjustments and go around those rocks.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (12:41) Like there's, yeah, there's going to be obstacles.

There's going to be falls. There's going to be rocks in the way, but I think you can curve around things, and figure out a way. sometimes it'll be a bigger problem than others for certain, if things like dyslexia pop up and, and real things that shift from your original plan, it can be disconcerting, but the more

more plastic you stay about it, the more fluid you stay about it, the less it's gonna throw you off of homeschooling entirely.

Della (13:11) Well, and I think it's really important to consider your own needs. Like maybe your kids are able to spend three hours in one block, but maybe you're not. And so that needs to be considered. Also, it is a major shift like you were talking about and you're with your kids 24 seven. There needs to be a significant break from that and maybe also having something all your own.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (13:17) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Della (13:40) that you do for some people that's work, for other people that's hobby or volunteer but whatever it is to make sure that you are keeping yourself in the equation, looking at your own needs throughout this whole process.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (13:41) Yeah.

Yeah,

and that can be adjusting things that you perhaps thought you really, really wanted to do also, maybe you had this picture in your head that every day you guys were gonna read aloud for an hour to start your day or end your day and kids are babbling about and running around and either you're frazzled or you're not frazzled. Maybe it's a time of day situation, you can change that and try it. But maybe it's just that that isn't really your jam. Maybe it doesn't work for your dynamic.

then you can switch it to something like, we all read what we want in the same room together, There's so many ways to make it work for you. I think we get very hung up on the picture perfect idea of how it's supposed to be in our heads, which is true of life, right? Like this idea of how it's supposed to be and what it really is, is where all of our dissatisfaction lies and our unhappiness.

Della (14:26) Right.

I really, really wanted

to do the morning basket you see all over. I really wanted that. And it just did not work. It just did not work for our family. And I eventually just had to let it go.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (14:48) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Same,

Della (15:00) I also really wanted to do the reading journal. I saw one that Christy did that was absolutely gorgeous where she took and did scrapbooking for a reading journal. We did that one day. That was the last day.

We never did it again.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (15:15) Yeah, I had the morning basket experience also where we tried and I made a basket and it was all these books and my kids just they wanted to either do something in depth or not at all. So they did not like this. We're going to talk about a bug and then we're going to talk about this and then we're going to talk about a composer. They were like

Are we talking about the composer or are we talking about the bug? What are we doing?

Della (15:43) That's funny. So tell

me what you did before children, before homeschooling and how that influences your homeschooling.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (15:52) I did a lot of things. had a very, very long path in academia. So I was a baby doc, which is just someone who goes into medical school fairly early. And then I left to teach medical science to seventh graders, which I loved. And then I left to go to law school and I became an IP attorney doing medical patents for robotic devices and things like that.

it was a long path. And I think like so many former gifted children, you have difficulty sometimes landing on what is meant for you. When I originally started teaching, I was waiting for people to pat me on the back and say, you seem really happy doing this. You should do this. But everyone was like, what is the next smart person thing that you're going to do? that point, I was too young to really grab the reins of my own life.

and do what I was meant to do. now I'm returning to the classroom. it all comes around. Seventh grade science. So, yeah. Yeah, I'm really excited. I'm really excited. And the kids have all these ideas to tell me now that they've the elder ones have done seventh grade in school. Well, one of them hasn't done seventh grade, but one of them has. And she.

Della (16:41) That's exciting. What will you be

That's awesome. That would be a lot of fun for me.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (16:59) has all these tips and tricks for me about what was dumb and boring and what I should try to do.

Della (17:04) So you're getting some

advice from your soon to be seventh grader or?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (17:10) And now I have a current seventh grader who's in school for the first time.

Della (17:14) Let's

talk about that. You had two entries into the public school system, One was a trial that semi worked and then now everybody is transitioning back in. So let's talk about the first one. How did that come about?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (17:18) Mm-hmm.

The first one came about because I have three very different children, which, if I may interject briefly, is something you should also consider in homeschooling. Your kids are going to be different humans. If you have a very rowdy first one, you might have a very quiet second one. If you have very outgoing first one, you might have a very introverted second one. None of these things are going to stay constant. If I have one tip, please do not buy curriculum.

for all of your years of homeschooling because it worked in first grade. Wait to see who your kids are and where they are and how they change. But back to our getting into school journey, my middle was much quieter than my bookends and she really felt like she wanted to expand her social circle. The bookends were very good at making friends wherever they went.

surfacey friendships were great for them. Deep friendships were easy for them. They made friends everywhere. My middle was more quiet. So she had a couple of good homeschooling friends, but she wanted to see more. She wanted to have more of a group sort of friend situation. she really felt like it was time for her to go to school. And so she was talking to me about this towards the end of fourth grade. And I thought.

If one of them is going to try it, let's let all of them try it. Let's see what this is. We're now out of COVID for the most part. I felt like this would be a good year to kind of see if they for this. we had also moved right during COVID. So I wanted them to get out the world, have an opportunity to make more friends that were in this area of town.

My eldest chose one school, my younger two chose another. I, in my homeschooling ignorance, thought that two drop-offs and two pickups would be no big deal. That was a big deal, But…

Della (19:11) I can't imagine one, Tanya, and you did

two.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (19:16) I will get into that. That was, cannot believe how naive I was about that. But in any case, so my eldest, very grumpy about it, went into eighth grade. And my youngest, also grumpy about it, went into third grade and my middle tried out fifth. And the girls were very happy with their social situation in school. They liked making friends. They liked seeing them all day.

They were hugely unimpressed with every other facet of school. They did not like the fact that the entire class got yelled at if a few kids were misbehaving. They did not appreciate having to raise their hand and wait for a bathroom token or any of these things. They didn't like that certain things on the playground were forbidden because someone had done something wrong on them. And so now the class couldn't use that particular swing or slide or what have you.

They didn't like any of the or rules and that was their biggest complaint. They also didn't like all the wasted time. the sitting down, the collecting papers, the lining up. They were very, very aware of these minutes spent waiting in transition was a huge issue for them. they came home by Halloween. They were like, peace out. That was interesting.

And the eldest, who was the grumpiest about it, really thrived. He had a wonderful time. my husband, I remember, said, he's gone from zero to 100 in two seconds in terms of life experience. I don't like it. he had a girlfriend. He had all these friends. He was going out, so many play dates and things like that on the weekend. he definitely thrived. he really was the winner.

out of that going back to school situation. He didn't know how ready he was for it until it happened. So you never know, when you put them back in. now after two more years, middle child recently decided last year to try school again and she went to her brother's school this time.

and she has had a great year also. She, as my quietest child, surprised everyone by being extraordinarily popular in school. And sometimes the things you worry about with your homeschool kids are really things you worry about. because you haven't seen them in this situation, you're guessing how things might go. sometimes you'll be right, I'm sure, but sometimes you'll be completely wrong.

because I picked her up earlier last week. And it was like an after school movie where all of these children in the playground noticed she was leaving everyone called out her name and started saying bye. Random people came to the front everyone wanted to say goodbye. she says to me sometimes, I don't know everyone's names. I'm sometimes nervous that they'll talk to me in the hallway and I'm just

trying to be nice, but I don't remember who you are. I'm like, I have never been that popular in my life, but good for you.

Della (21:55) That's awesome. How is your

youngest adjusting?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (21:58) The youngest has had a year alone and she has loved it. This has been my only year homeschooling one child she has loved it, loved it. I mean, she is one of those kids who really appreciates good things about homeschooling, like the real good things like second breakfast and pajamas and late wakeups. we sometimes say about kids who are homeschooling, they don't realize how good they have it. This one, the youngest one.

realizes how good she has it and is relatively upset that I'm returning to the classroom next year she's going to have to go to school. she bemoans the lack of pajamas and that'll happen, yeah, in the fall. it's going to be an adventure.

Della (22:36) Will she go to the same school as the older two?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (22:38) No, I have convinced her to come to school with me. she'll be in my school building because she'll be starting in six. I thought let's put her in my middle school where I'll be teaching.

Della (22:48) That's a good idea. Then you'll have her close by.

what advice do you have for new homeschoolers?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (22:55) I think that the advice that I ignored at the beginning was to unschool or de-school I don't think that would have worked for me anyway because I am a little bit of a type A person. I need to have some sort of plan for the day. I do wish that I had built in more purposeful reflection time at the beginning, more purposeful gathering of casual data on my children.

that definitely came later to me. It came instinctively to me in one sense, but I kind of resisted it, this urge to reassess and figure out as we were going. I very much thought there is a right way to do this. I'm going to figure out the best way to do this and then I'm going do it. And all the pieces will fall into place. And I stayed in that for longer than I would have liked.

I think I was pretty flexible but reflecting upon it now 10 years in, I wasn't. I had harder times than I needed to they were little. Also when your kids are little, if you're starting early, remember that they're little, there's so much time. There's no real set timeline to this. I think there's a lot of pressure we put on ourselves like

By the end of this year, we should have all of these skills checked off. And really, by the end of this year, you should see Wherever you begin, try to see growth. Have your metrics. I really believe in having objectives and thinking about where you want to go. But again, try to stay flexible and try to stay kind to yourself as well as your kids about how you're getting there. There is really no timeline to this thing.

No one going to ask you a question so detailed that you can't show think we have this real pressure on ourselves as homeschool parents anything that happens with our kids is our fault. Now it's just I think you should think of it differently. think that you should think of it as like anything that happens now is because of all of us. We are all on this adventure.

Be gentle with yourself and be realistic about who you are, not who you want to be, not who you're striving to be, but who you are today. Because if you keep trying to operate in that future self, your days will become miserable and always a failure. Which is why also, I reverse plan rather than forward plan, my forward plans are fairly loose. I have objectives.

I print out state objectives. I pick a different state than my own because I like them better, but I have objectives. ideas of where the curriculum is going. I map out how many days it should take, when I would like to do various things throughout the year. I do not write everything down or type everything out for the entire year mapped to a calendar. I try to keep it list based so that

when I decide to do it every week, I can look at all my objectives in the various curricula and decide, okay, we're gonna move it into here. this week we're sick. this particular activity and these particular units seem great to do here. this is gonna be a movie and clay week, you can shift for your present circumstances and that way you're still making progress. if you keep a reverse homeschool planner, which I have a YouTube video on it if you wanted to see.

how I do that, basically every week and every day you just write down what you've actually done. You put in pictures or cutouts or examples of work of what you've actually done. And you would be amazed at how much progress you're making and how many experiences you're having if you do it this way. If on the other end, you only have a forward planner and you're expecting to check off everything every day, you will have like,

maybe 10 days out of 180 that you have done everything on that list. And that's fine. That's normal. So even if you have to stick to a forward plan, I urge you to have some book or journal or other planner where you're writing down what you're actually doing because it will make you feel better about everything.

Della (26:54) feel like that's really good advice on both ends, one on the de-schooling and on the reverse planning. We did reverse planning initially when my children were young. Once you get your feet under you, don't necessarily feel like you have to lock everything. But in the beginning, it was really helpful for me to see all the different aspects of learning that were happening that weren't

something that I had actually planned. can I just say that for teachers in particular, I think the de-schooling is a special kind of journey for them. It sometimes is a little more challenging.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (27:32) Yeah.

Della (27:35) but I have heard from several public school teachers about that journey, which is interesting, How many months was that for you and what did it finally look like when you were de-schooling?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (27:48) I didn't do school with my eldest because when we started first grade, I was like, first grade is going to be the year I teach him how to be like a school kid. That evaporated within a month. But so for me, D school was almost like that transition from forward planning to reverse planning happened very soon because I realized very quickly I wasn't checking off even half the things on my list for the day. I did loosen automatically because he was so

I remember his kindergarten teacher described him as so cheerfully disobedient. that's really who my eldest is. It was so cheerfully disobedient. was hard not to, it was hard to resist his enthusiasm for making the walk take three hours instead of one hour, doing it the way he wanted. And so he taught me much more than anyone else did about how this was going to go at the beginning. And I really do appreciate that. It is nice to have a cheerfully disobedient.

little person guiding you towards reality. It was the greatest blessing, I think, in the beginning of this journey.

Della (28:46) The word disobedient is triggering That's not I feel like disobedience has a nuance of intention. And that's not intentional on his part at all. It's funny that she described him like that.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (28:56) Yeah.

She did, and she did it with not a twinkle in her eye. She said it in a very confused way. he wasn't aware of how he should be feeling about the disobedience. But for me, I remember as someone who's like inordinately fond of her children, I remember smiling because he is just such a tearful little soul. Like he still loved her.

in spite of all the reprimands and everything, he is so willing to see the best in people. I remember as a young mom too, you you're very triggered when other people have negative opinions of your children. he was good in teaching me how to not be too upset about it. He would tell me all these nice things about her when I would say, slightly irritated things about what was going on. He would say,

no, but she's so good at teaching, blah, blah, blah, blah. I was like, okay. We had a very negative experience in kindergarten. I wasn't happy with the accommodations, but really what really triggered me to switch to homeschooling, crystallized the decision for me, was the kindergarten kids had treasure box. I didn't even realize this was something that was going on because my kid never got treasure box.

One Friday when I was speaking of, I realized a bunch of other kids in his little waiting line had this particular little toy, because I guess usually they put it in their backpack, but this was one that wouldn't let it fit. And he didn't. I said, did you forget your toy? I just assumed everyone got this. he said, no, that's treasure box. what he said next like broke my heart because he said, I'll never get it. I was like, what do you mean?

he said, I'm never going to get treasure box because I'm never going to have five check marks for the week. I said, OK. you should get treasure you are a beautiful person. I'm going to go get you a treasure today. I remember even now, it makes me cry

to hear him say in his little like five-year-old voice, I'm never gonna get that. he was like cheerful about it too. he was just making the best of it. I could not as a mom, bear it. I couldn't deal like how someone could do that to a kid, and casually have that happen. I'm gonna cry. he was such a good little kid,

Della (30:56) Mm-hmm.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (31:00) Like he said it with no malice, no anger at her, nothing, just so matter of fact. I was like, I don't want my kid to be matter of fact about doors or opportunities being close to him, you know? Whether it's like a pinwheel that you're getting or something more serious. no one is a static being, people are always changing. We're always growing.

Della (31:13) Right.

Did you get that treasure?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (31:29) I did.

Della (31:29) How did the teacher respond to that?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (31:32) told her that I think it's inappropriate for kids to believe that they are limited forever from something at such a young age. It is perfectly fine to have reward systems. It's perfectly fine to have incentives. It is not perfectly fine to tell a child that they are something, anything.

honestly, to say that they are permanently something, permanently put in a box. I cringe when when I hear people tell their kids like, you're going to grow up to be an XYZ, when they're little, little. I think that this idea of children being put into boxes, you're the smart kid and you're the artsy kid and you're the engineering kid. You are just a kid.

you are learning about how things work in the world around You might be very good at building towers. It doesn't mean you have to be an architect or an engineer. These limitations that we put on kids can be positive or negative. It's why when people ask me, why did you tell your kid that he had ADHD? I think that's a very personal decision. I don't think there's a right answer or a wrong answer. For me, I wanted him to know why we were switching from schooling to homeschooling for a year. I wanted him to know that it could be

Della (32:16) Right.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (32:42) an advantage to him. I wanted to present it in a way that felt empowering. I wanted him to have the language around his own brain. That is the language we use. I presented it in a way that I felt was the most honest, but also the most empowering. you have a different brain. your brain works very, very fast. And sometimes that is hard to fit into.

how typical systems we want to learn our best techniques to put your fast car in a regular road. he's always been very into cars and that worked for if you have a Ferrari brain, how do you drive that on regular How do you take care of it? it takes a lot of care. It's such a special car.

I think how we present things to kids matters a lot. How we talk to them matters a lot. how we talk to ourselves matters a lot too. These quizzes where they ask, what kind of homeschool parent are you? Are you a ocean parent or this parent? They're fun. if you keep it light and fun, it's fine. But I don't think you should identify with any particular methodology or type of

homeschool parent. I think it can be really limiting. think people who make fun of, for example, Waldorf, it's very popular to make fun of Waldorf when you're a very traditionalist homeschooler. It's very easy to make fun of traditional school homeschoolers when you're like more Montessori or more Waldorf. I think these limitations we put on ourselves are the same as limitations we put on kids.

there's a lot to be learned from all of these different modalities. a lot of them come from good places trying to get kids to to reach their best potential. the bottom line is you are different than any other homeschool parent and your kids are different than any other homeschool kids, even in your own house. your eldest will not be like your youngest, will not be like your middle. that is okay. It's like a wonderful, wonderful thing that you have the opportunity to

fine tune your experience. we really should make our homeschools unique.

Della (34:36) as

a homeschool coach, one of the things that I have learned, because I kind of see myself as a homeschool midwife when I had my midwife with the birth of my children, I remember at one point, I think with my oldest, where I was like, breastfeeding is best. It gives the most nutrition,

Tanya @projecthappyhome (34:45) Mm-hmm.

Della (34:58) all in on the breastfeeding. How can someone not choose to breastfeed their children? And she very gently and kindly went into various scenarios where breastfeeding was not best for the mother child scenario. And my eyes were open right. She really said that she has to move without judgment.

through situations and that her job is to cater and guide the experience in a way that is best for that individual. that's what I feel like in my homeschool coaching. I cannot judge. I have to guide and walk this path with this person and do what they need. And the one thing that I realized in my coaching

Tanya @projecthappyhome (35:31) Mm-hmm.

Della (35:44) capacity was that as soon as somebody judges and says you should never recreate school at home or whatever Waldorf doesn't have the academic rigor or which is not necessarily true or whatever it is that indeed there was a situation where you definitely needed to recreate school at home for whatever that means

when we make these rigid labels, we confine ourselves in ways that don't serve us.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (36:17) Yeah. And

I think sometimes the things that you are most resistant to are the things that help you the most. I know for me, like as a very type A person who found school easy and actually loved traditional schooling, I love books. I love reading. I love taking notes and annotating and remembering things and taking multiple choice tests and writing essays. I I love all of it. I'm a terrible person to have as a homeschool parent in that way, because to me, it's all fun, all of the traditional stuff.

for me, learning about Waldorf was so helpful because it really informed me into the things that didn't come easy to me. I remember seeing a Waldorf homeschool planner that had the head, the hand, the rotation. that was something that I found early and I started using that when the kids were very small. that helped me so much because I could put in all my traditional pieces.

but space them in such a way that our days were so much more pleasant and age appropriate to who they were, which is something that doesn't come naturally to me at all. That is not instinctive at all. But I, as a grown woman, found it so soothing to myself, to run through those rhythms, not just for the benefit of the kids, but for me, because I often run at a hundred and forget to do things that are enriching.

to the spirit, pause really do something with my hands. think that what you are most resistant to, really look into, because sometimes those are the things that come hard for you and may have come hard for you your whole entire life. this is your opportunity learn something As you implement it in your homeschool, I think there's so much of value that I have learned.

Della (37:30) Mm-hmm.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (37:52) throughout homeschooling because I really never approached life in those if people start following just their own type of homeschooler, think the temptation to just follow Montessori if you're a Montessori schooler or just follow unschooling if you're an unschooler really broaden who you're listening to and who you're following because you might be surprised. There might be little things, little tips, little

scenarios from lessons to lifestyles, that resonate with you. you might be confused as to why it resonates with you at the beginning. It might be because it's been what you've been lacking, your body, your mind, your spirit responds to it in a way that resounds with it, you might need that piece. homeschooling has been beautiful in that way. I have loved learning from people

I know in today's political climate, it has been hard seeing people also, but in homeschooling, has also been lovely to see people who I fundamentally disagree with in many ways do beautiful things with their kids and in their homes. And I mean, it's a double-sided thing, but I think there's much to be learned from people who you think you might not have anything to learn, anything.

Della (38:54) Mm-hmm.

I think this whole conversation also has an undercurrent of growth mindset, which is so important, not pegging the child, the individual, the parent as, good at math, good at art, and understanding when we work towards any one thing, we become better at it.

When we do more math, when we do more art, when we practice, we get better at it instead of defining an individual as this one thing or that one thing. And growth mindset is very important in education overall. So I feel like it's really apt that that has been the undercurrent of our conversation.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (39:27) Exactly.

I have seen myself as a student in homeschooling, alongside my children. I think there have been things that have worked really well from the outset that we luckily wandered into. there have been things that were not right for us. there were things that were right for us at one time that then grew into things that we weren't suited for. the way it goes. I think that

It's very rare to find a homeschooler who sticks with it for a long time, who is doing it exactly the same way they did at the beginning.

Della (40:11) Yeah, I don't know anybody that happens with I don't know anybody at all. In fact, what I find is that really it takes three or maybe even four years to get your feet fully under you where you feel confident in the homeschooling. You have a rhythm. You have an understanding and you feel confident in that. Having said that.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (40:18) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Della (40:35) it's just a period of time before something's going to up in that and you have to do a reflection and you're going to have to come up with a new plan because it's all going to change again.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (40:45) Yep.

Yeah, and some of it is going to change just because of life and years passing. You're going to have kids who have different schedules. even if their personalities stay the same, which they won't, but you're going to have different lives. You're going to have different hours. People are going to start taking extracurriculars. Things are going to change. Your life's going to move outside of the house somewhat. There's no right way to do this thing. there's just the way that's the most enriching for your own.

Della (41:09) song.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (41:12) family. It's like gardening, right? you could tell me all the tips in the world for how to grow a particular plant, but I won't be in the same zone as you. My household be oriented the same way as you. I won't have the same amount of sunshine or the same type of soil. That doesn't make any one way right or wrong. It just means you're going to have to figure out a different thing to grow your beautiful plant.

Della (41:31) Right. So as more of a traditional homeschooler, what kind of curricula did you choose for your children?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (41:39) I am as literature-based as they come mentally, emotionally, myself. I realized that that only worked with one of my children. I love Build Your Library. I think Emily Cook does such a great job of choosing books that are actually good, which was a big pet peeve of mine with some literature-based curricula where I felt like it looked very pretty.

But when you started reading some of the books, they were not good. I took great exception to that because I'm a big reader life is too short to read bad books. one thing you can rely on with Build Your Library is that the books are great. while my kids were small, we were all using Build Your Library because the kids were small and didn't have opinions, the little, little ones, my eldest loved it.

as my middle got to be a little bit older and it would have become more of an independent reading situation, she very calmly informed me, I do not want to read 70 books this year. I would like to read closer to 10 or 12. So make it happen. And I did. I adjusted there. I still keep it fairly traditional. I think people get this idea that when you have a lot of curricula, you're doing all of it from start to finish. I very much do not.

I go through curricula and decide what kinds of pieces from that curricula work for us and work in whatever unit we're working on. I don't quite do unit studies. I do a sequential curriculum, but I don't do 100 % of all of these overlapping curricula because that would be impossible and terrible and make everyone miserable. And really, you'd just be sitting there and writing things down all day. So like I said, I reassess every week.

and I kind of see where we are and where we'd like to be going and how everyone feels and what the schedule is is. And then we fill in the pieces. And I'm not too precise about it now. So I mentioned Build Your Library. I have really loved Math Mammoth for math. I do a lot of math in my home school. I had Right Start because I like the games. But again, I didn't go through the curricula straight through. Someone gave me Right Start early on and I just really liked the games. So we played a bunch of the games.

I did a lot of your curriculum for math for multiplication, division, and math facts. And it was beautiful. My kids really love art. seeing the visual depiction of things was great for them. So I take different pieces. And I guess I would call myself eclectic more than traditional, because even though I do a lot of book work, I try to do a lot of other work at the same time.

that makes it more enriching. we watch a lot of videos. I like to use curricula like Blossom and Root and Mint and Bloom, right? So that I can get all of those pieces put in like the audio visual component. And people will say you buy this curricula just for the audio visual component. And I say, yes, have you tried to make an entire year's worth of audio visual resources? Because it takes a lot of time, to vet them, to know that they're good for the kids, to know that they're relevant to the topic.

Della (44:08) Mm-hmm.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (44:28) I will pay for that whether or not I'm using any other parts of the curriculum. I will pay for someone who's overview I kind of appreciate and trust. that's why we have a lot of curricula, but we don't do 100 % of it. have used non-secular curriculum also. Like I have used, I think there was a book by Roddenstaff that is made for North Carolina.

I don't know if they have it for other states, called Nature in the Summer or something. I bought it, I think it's some homeschool resale. And they are so good. talk about every chapter is like this little family finding some animal or plant and talking about it. And there's all these little sketches in the margins. we try to copy the sketches into our little notes.

I think that that's another way of growth mindset. Don't limit yourself to one thing or another. Really explore what might work for you. A lot of people would say I would never buy that because it's run in staff, but it has been one of our favorite homeschool resources.

we read one little chapter every day. And so at this point, we've read like so many of the chapters through spring and summer that they really know all of these animals and plants that are here. I would say my most consistent curricula have been Build Your Library and Math Mammoth and everything else we have peppered in and out.

Della (45:36) How far up does math mammoth go?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (45:39) We brought through seventh. So I had my eldest go to school in eighth, right? So I'm not positive. I do think they have other units. They're not the light blue books. They're the dark blue books because I think they have that dark blue book for decimals and things like that. So I'm not sure if it, I think she has a pre-algebra unit though. we also used a lot of Eben Moore resources and critical thinking company resources too.

things like mind vendors from Critical Thinking Company their math reasoning books, those are really good. I have liked a mix of think it keeps the kids engaged. I think it keeps them thinking about similar concepts in different ways.

Della (46:14) One of the more common coaching scenarios I find when people are overwhelmed and need help is that they are doubling up on the language arts They are often doing

all kinds of language arts and not as much math and there needs to be like a little more balance. They will be doing the full program for three or four different language arts programs every single day. if you want to use Michael Clay Thompson and all about spelling build your own library, you completely can.

But you need to pick and choose and balance so you're only doing, XML of language arts every day. And language arts encompasses so much with grammar, spelling, writing, reading, that those things can be separated out

Tanya @projecthappyhome (47:09) I think my worst times

have been when I do similar things, where I get overly enthused about different things and try to do too much of them. So my suggestion to people now is to prevent the overbuying, which I was a consistent and horrendous overbuyer. So I say this with lots of authority. Make a notebook, just a spiral bound cheapo notebook.

and have it be the things I think are interesting. And throughout the year, when you think about things for next year, write down, have a few pages for English resources, have a few pages for grammar resources, have a few pages for math resources, et cetera, and just write it down. Write down the price point, write down when you think the sale came around, and don't buy any of it. Just write it down. Write down your notes about it, what you think about it. Anytime you see someone talk about that curricula, turn to that page.

where you had jotted it down before and write down, there's this pro, but there's this con. take your notes about it, ruminate on it. Don't be so enthused on a bad week of math about some other curriculum that you just saw and buy it and then institute it next week and then realize that it's not gonna be the best fit and then go back to the other one, but then think, but I wasted all that money, so let's do both of them. Don't do any of that. it comes time to buy stuff for the next year,

Really look at that list, look at that notebook of ideas, then have one sheet. One, not two, not three, not five, one, where you have a little table, a grid that you've drawn for yourself with math, spelling, grammar. You can split out language arts into different concepts if you like reading, writing, great. Science, history, social studies, and we're getting into the weeds here, geography, really, indulge yourself.

and then write down one thing for each of those ideas or subjects that you think is gonna be your core. Really, this is what I want to get through for the year. You don't get to write down two, you don't get to write down three, you get to write down one, just one. So if my core for grammar is gonna be Michael Clay Thompson, it is gonna be Michael Clay Thompson. It is not gonna be Rod and Staff, Michael Clay Thompson, build your library, it's not gonna be all of the things, it's just gonna be that one.

If your core for reading is going to be build your library, you have to think to yourself, okay, so build your library also includes these other things. Am I going to do those other things at all? am I going to buy the grammar suggested by that or am I not? if I really want to do Michael Clay Thompson for grammar, great. Then I'm not going to purchase the grammar books suggested by this other thing. You have to be judicious about how you allot your resources and your time.

I also really, really, really advocate for people making a weekly time sheet at the beginning of the year. you lay out on this weekly hourly spread, again, one sheet. What are your times? When do people wake up? When do people go to bed? When are your piano lessons, your swimming lessons, your taekwondo lessons? block out all that. What are your travel times? Block out all that. Block out another half an hour around all that.

really, you think you're gonna eat breakfast in half an hour? Plug out an hour. be generous with all the time you're going to spend doing other things. And now look and see how many hours you really have left. If you're gonna do a co-op day, take out that whole day. Just do it for your own sake. Remove that day from your schedule. If you get to use it for academic things or your own homeschool things, great, great.

but remove it from what you're planning at the beginning. And really think, okay, this only leaves this many hours. How much can we really spend on And then you can experiment. Now you can really experiment. Maybe you guys have a homeschool where you do all your core subjects every day and sprinkle in all your supplemental things. Or maybe a block system works better for you.

Maybe a loop schedule works better for you where you really know you want to do math, science, arithmetic, English. And if you haven't gotten to the next thing on your loop, you don't go backwards and do math again because you're stressed. You keep going with your loop. Figure out how you work best, but be honest with yourself about how much time there is. And as somebody who has wasted so much money, don't do it. Just don't do it. Stay true to that one page system.

At the beginning of the year to plot out your year, you really just need those two pages. One page of resources for your subjects and one weekly calendar. we put too much on ourselves, in our enthusiasm, in our new planner enthusiasm. we set ourselves up for disaster and then wonder why in three weeks we feel so bad about how homeschooling is going.

Della (51:35) I think that's really good advice. I think people tend to over plan in general and think that they will get more done than what they will and don't understand really how much time school is actually going to take. And as they get older, because when they're young, it's not as important, but when they hit

middle school, have to guard that time a little more to make sure that the things that you want to get done are done. it used to be generations before me with homeschooler didn't have a lot of options. They had very few curricula options. They had very few outside options. They basically had to create a lot of their own.

It is completely the opposite now where the biggest challenge is the overwhelming amount of options for everything. There are classes now that are specifically for homeschooling in the middle of the day. There are extra curricular activities, horse riding, archery.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (52:30) Mm-hmm.

Music.

Della (52:46) music,

in the middle of the day available for homeschoolers, co-ops, there's so much available. You really have to guard your time when they get older so that you prioritize what you want to get done.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (52:58) Mm-hmm.

Yeah. And I think that when we look at our schedules, I cannot emphasize enough, really look at transition times because you will build in, this is my piano lesson, this is how long it takes to get there, this is how long it takes to get back. What you will not build in is second and third breakfast right after you get back, there will be people hungry, there will be people who need a break, which is normal, think that through.

And again, another plug for reverse planning. have an idea of where you want to go, have a plan, do not tie it to a calendar. My first year homeschooling, I literally, I mean, you'll laugh, but like, I think a lot of people do this. I blocked out the entire year. Like every day of that planner was filled out with what math we were going to do, what English we were going to do. Handwritten, by the way. When I think about it now.

Della (53:43) wow.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (53:51) I mean, and I was just going through and crossing out and the beginning I was a little bit alarmed, but then I was like, it's okay, it's still good to have a plan. I can just keep crossing things out. But at a certain point, we were so many months behind where I thought we would be that it wasn't like a day or two or a few weeks. It was like two months before I was like, okay, next year we will not be doing this.

a list of assignments and projects that I wanted to do that was not tied in any way to a calendar. So it was so much more soul satisfying all year. It was wild. I don't know what I was thinking, but in case you've done that, we've all been there.

Della (54:17) Full year! my goodness.

I, yeah.

Well, you were new.

Right,

we're at a point where

I could do that when they were younger in a map out a general sense. Like I want to cover these different Waldorf style blocks. I want to choose these certain goals for the year in a general sense. But now she has her own interests, her own ideas. And this is what I found for high school with my oldest two. Like you can go in the general direction.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (54:34) Mm-hmm.

Della (54:57) Like we know we're going this way. We don't know what part of this way. We don't know exactly where the path is, but we know we're going this way. But they keep you on your toes. Like my daughter just asked last week, can we study marine biology? Which I'm thrilled, thrilled at. My children have never been really interested in marine biology. And as a marine biologist, I'm like, I would love nothing more than to teach you marine biology.

But it was out of the blue surprise for me. And so now I've got to figure out how to teach marine biology. And then also where that fits in with all the other blocks we have yet to get done for this year. I mean, it'll push it off till next year, but I'm really feeling

that hopefully it'll be fun. We've run into instances before where our communication is different. She has this one idea in her head of what that is. And then I have a different idea. This happened with Botany early on. She had an idea of what Botany was going to be. And it was not the same idea that I had.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (55:44) You are super good qualified for that.

Della (56:10) for botany and so then when we're doing botany, she's like, this is not what I wanted. This is not what I asked for. I had that experience to rely to ask her at this when you say you want to study marine biology, what do you mean by that? What is it exactly that you want to be studying? Apparently it's sharks. So yeah.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (56:11) Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

I think that…

Della (56:36) Yeah, so we'll definitely include

some shark and egg theology, that can't, well, I guess it could be the soul thing, but we'll probably add more stuff to it.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (56:46) I think the danger of asking our kids opinions too is something to learn because I have vacillated wildly between you really setting the show myself when when they're kids, kind of do that when they're very, very little, but then giving way too much weight to their opinions also because it is important to remember that they are kids and they are

having their feelings about, whatever it is, whether they think they hate art projects, or they think they hate worksheets, or they think they hate writing essays. They might dislike certain aspects of it, but certain things you're still going to have to figure out on your own as a parent. You're still going to have to observe them. This is why I feel like observing your kids on the regular days when you're not asking them these questions is so important. if they are having problems with writing essays, like what is their pain point,

is it that they're handwriting it? Because I know for one of my kids, that was literally the pain point. it wasn't the essay writing at all. It was just that the initial stages were handwritten. I was like, would you like to type out your rough draft? They were like, yeah, sure. They didn't even realize that in other words, pain point. And then it was easy. It was like smooth sailing, like no issues. So sometimes it's really just about observing them throughout the process and don't give up on things too soon. you might think it's

IEW, for example, which has also been remarkably effective for us, that's not working. But it's actually just something like this, something tactile that's not It can be just the fact that they're doing it in a room with siblings at the same time. yeah, homeschooling is a giant science experiment, right? It is about observing, You have that hypothesis about things are going to go, what you think might work.

You're going to observe your initial experiment, set a procedure, observe it. And then you're going to take your notes and think to yourself, OK, well, this is what I've concluded. But then when you create your next experiment, there's no guarantee that your second experiment is going to solve all those problems. You're just going to gain more information. You're going to hone it as you go. I think we all, like you were saying, this idea that before we used to have very limited resources, and now we have like 10,000 things to pick from.

There's this fallacy that we all believe that there's this perfect curricula, if not for everyone, for us. There's going to be this perfect English curricula. There's going to be this perfect math curricula and it's going to solve all our problems. And that is not true. That just isn't true. if anything, there's probably too many perfect curricula and you're going to want to use all of them,

There is no I think that in homeschooling in particular, it's so beautiful. The social media we get on it is so beautiful. There's this idea that everything around that table lays as beautiful. And it's not. It's about so much more than people shoving aside all the stuff on the desk. It's literally about life. Life is messy.

Della (59:10) Right.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (59:31) And that is totally okay. And we can have beautiful moments inside that. This striving for like perfect is the death of it. You are not going to have 180 perfect days of homeschooling.

I find it humorous when some people will say, there's this lesson and we just can't get through it and I don't know how to do it. And I'm like, why not just scrap it and move on? figure out a different way to teach that thing that you don't like in this format. There's no rule that says you have to do lessons 75 through 80. Just skip, go to 81. 81's great

Della (59:59) Right.

that's a really good point. When we are doing a lesson, particularly if we are having something with difficulty or if I'm having I ask myself, what am I teaching? What is it that we're trying to get out of this lesson? Am I going to teach it another way, which is almost…

always a yes, like will we hit this again? Will this lesson be taught another way? And is it worth pushing through now or focusing in on it later? I'm always asking myself those questions and sometimes going back to your previous point of finding the pain point, sometimes when they're like,

I hate math or I hate art. It is an expression something being challenging at that time. We have definitely run into situations where we have been doing something she has expressed frustration. It's usually general for her and I have scrapped that and then later she'll be like, well, why don't we do that thing that we did before?

And I'm like, what?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:01:15) Yeah, exactly.

I've scrapped things and not bought them for subsequent year because of how negative they seem to respond to it. And they're like, where is this? Why don't we have this anymore? And I'm like, oh, I thought based on that outburst you did not like it. And they'll be so cavalier. Oh, I was just having a bad day.

Della (1:01:26) Right?

They can just be having expressing another emotion about something that they don't fully recognize and it's not the curricula or the activity or even the lesson. So tell me one thing that has been the most challenging for you in

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:01:51) The most challenging thing for me, I will say two. One has been getting out of my own head about how this should look. Truly that has been far and away the most challenging thing. The children have been lovely. The children have been great. I have been the problem. Hi, it's me. I'm the problem, it's me most of the time.

that is something to be humble about. It is a humbling experience, homeschooling. It is very kids will tell me sometimes, you're doing so great today. I've always told my kids, we're in it together. You guys tell me when you see something that needs to be addressed, I'll tell you too, and we'll all be honest together. that has been a humbling experience.

Again, everything we've been talking about growth mindset, this idea that you are not starting this process with this I'm already formed notion. we haven't, I cannot say it enough and I know I've been saying it over and over, but really give yourself grace, give your kids grace, see where you're going. don't be where you're going. Don't put this emphasis on yourself to be there already,

to be completely a unified whole already, it get there. What is quote from a little prince, love is looking outwards in the same direction, it's not looking at each other? It's this idea for homeschool too, Look outwards this direction of where we all wanna go, everyone's going to succeed somewhere,

and have that be in the back of your mind. How can I help this child succeed? How can I succeed here? instead of, I must already be successful. I think that shift was very, very helpful for me. And then my other thing would be, in all honesty, having different ages in a room together and trying to do things as a group. was harder than I expected it to be.

When they were very small, was very easy because my kids are fairly good natured. As they got older and they really started to shift into preteen and teenage feelings in years, and those differences between your youngest and your middle and your oldest become more pronounced. That was interesting. it's interesting to think about because Waldorf really helped me there. That whole nine-year-old shift and these types of emotional teachings about what's going on with a child.

That was so much more helpful to me than I would have figured at the beginning. working with kids where they're at, when they're all in the same room, and you're trying to do a family lesson or trying to read a read aloud, that might not be hitting the same for everyone, that shift, managing that shift was difficult for me. It did not come easily.

Della (1:04:17) this is definitely a universal challenge. I hear this very commonly, particularly in Waldorf, anytime I do a workshop with Hannah, people are asking, how are you schooling more than one child? What advice do you have for that?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:04:20) Mm-hmm.

Della (1:04:34) challenging and then I also think in some ways it makes it easier

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:04:39) I had to let go again, this idea of how you think it should look. is continuously letting go of that, you will have years where it works beautifully and then the next year inexplicably, the system that had worked beautifully for a few years is not at all functioning. really shifting with changing personalities and not always doing the same subjects at the same time, for example, like when they were small,

we would do math together everyone was at a different level, but we all kind of were doing it. it's much easier to manage when all you're teaching is multiplication and division and addition number lines then as you get one kid into pre-algebra and one kid is learning equations for the first time and one kid is learning geometry for the first time, it helps to have your attention not be split. You as a teacher too, because they get frustrated when

they have to wait and all of the same things that made them frustrated in public school. So I tried to switch up our schedule in a way that for their most challenging subjects or for my most challenging subjects to teach, I made sure that I wasn't splitting my attention between several children at those times. I would try to have the other two in something that they could do on their own comfortably for the most part while I was working on the most intense thing with one of them. That was a huge shift for us.

then I also let go of some of my dreams and hopes for together things, some things I kept in line, but other things that just weren't working in that way. I let them go. I bit them a sad farewell because it just wasn't working for their developmental stages. that was okay. it's rough on you, it's rough, particularly after great years, after great periods where things are going swimmingly because you feel like you've arrived,

Somewhere in third to fourth to fifth year of homeschooling, there's this period, especially if you start young, where everyone is at their most developed stage. It's before all the pubertal hormones have kicked in. You're coasting. understand what homeschooling is about. And then it all shifts again as they become preteens. there is a period of mourning to be had when you have to shift it all up again.

Della (1:06:28) it weren't that way for us to I'm remembering that before adolescence when we're all sitting at the table together doing our schooling together scaffolded at different levels for different children then as they get older and they are going into more complex.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:06:36) Mm-hmm.

Della (1:06:45) studies, there does, there needs to be more, they are both autonomous, have more autonomy in their lessons, and more independent in their work. also, when they do need you, it needs to be full focus, directed, one on

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:07:01) Yes.

Della (1:07:02) So the last question of today, what was something in the homeschooling that surprised you that you weren't expecting?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:07:11) most surprising thing for me has been seeing the kids interact with each other, me and the material in a way that is entirely different than everything I had experienced as a traditional school kid. I thought that homeschooling

would be not necessarily school at home, but very similar to how I had learned previously. we learn in a very different way at home, which I was unprepared for. The way we process information and the rabbit holes we take and how much more we learn in a rabbit hole than in our actual lesson and how we remember things and how they recall things is so different.

than when you're in a traditional environment. I think partly because of how much time we spend together and also that you have this little troop, this merry troop before who are recalling things in real time so that when you encounter it out in the world somewhere else, like wild onion growing or something, you remember it in a real way and someone will find it and someone else will call out what it is and someone else will remember.

know what seasons it grows in and it's not like anybody has to ask the question. Sometimes they're just talking about it. That has been a delightful thing about homeschooling and my kids still even though the older two go to school will come home and tell me things about things they've learned whether it's in school or from their friends or somewhere else. learning seems to be more a ever-present kind of universal concept to them than it ever was for me. I

felt like I was very nerdy and I was. But learning was definitely separate from life in a way that is not true for my Truly, as far as that we've been eclectic and mostly traditional and classical and whatever, they really see it everywhere. To them, there is no line that separates the space for learning from the space for living. All of it is one continuous experience.

that has been a wonderful thing to see. learning has become much more like that for me as well. Because now you encounter it. There's something about homeschooling where you encounter it everywhere, as opposed to just when you go to a museum or just when you go a documentary or something. You really are looking for it everywhere. teaching them in this way has trained my mind in this way. And for them, it's just a natural way of existing.

if I think of any one real advantage to homeschooling, I think that's it. That you are in this life, all of it is available to you for learning about. It's not something you have to go to a do, or have a particular time and space and book to do. the other thing I would say is that I am so known by my children, and that has surprised me too.

I feel very known by them in a way that I don't know my parents, and that has been lovely and a big surprise. they know me so well, so much better than friends I grew up with, than my parents, than my spouse. They know me. They know my good things, my bad things. They know all my little foibles, they know my favorite things. They know like what I'm scared of. They know all the things.

that has been surprising and wonderful for a fairly introverted person.

Della (1:10:16) That's beautiful. Both of those are absolutely beautiful.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Tanya. I really appreciate it.

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:10:24) It has been lovely to talk to you. And I just want to say, Della, like I have learned so much from you personally. So I really, really appreciate it. Like this is like such a nice full circle moment for me.

Della (1:10:36) Could you tell us where we can find you online?

Tanya @projecthappyhome (1:10:39) you can find me on YouTube and Instagram at Project Happy Home. And I recently started a TikTok account more for books and skincare and things about being in your 40s. And that's at ferralbluestockingreads.

Della (1:10:52) Thank you so much.

Jasmine is a mom of four, homeschooling/ afterschooling her children in Southeast Asia. Shifting her priorities to a more traditional homeschool, Jasmine’s approach is both intentional and thoughtful as she transitions her older two kids from middle to highschool. She has been homeschooling for seven years, originally in Pennsylvania, before her family of six moved to Southeast Asia. Her two youngest attend the local school where the are immersed in a bilingual program of traditional Chinese and English. She is still responsible for teaching her younger children ELA. Her family continues to adjust to their new lives,  taking it one day at a time.

Show Chapters

00:00 Opening Highlights 01:36 Meet Jazz 03:12 Pennsylvania's Homeschool Requirements 08:13 How the Pandemic Led to Homeschooling 14:26 Raising a Gifted Child 21:42 The Decision to Move to Taiwan 24:34 Downsizing a Life Into Suitcases 27:27 Adjusting to Life in Taiwan 33:39 Homeschooling in a New Country 38:18 The Case for Traditional Homeschooling 38:53 Beauty of Play Membership 44:13 Teaching an Inclusive History 51:29 Arts, Music & Bringing Yourself to Homeschool 53:01 No Requirements: Homeschooling as a Foreigner 58:23 Homeschooling Teenagers 01:02:12 Creativity, Rest & Following Teen Interests 01:06:46 The Greatest Challenge: Time 01:14:50 What Surprised Me Most 01:16:32 Closing

Jack and Link

Core Knowledge

Ida B Wells

Tennessee State Museum

Women's History. org

PBS Masterpiece

Transcript

Della (01:20) This week we're meeting Jazz. Jasmine is a mom of four, homeschooling and afterschooling her children in Southeast Asia. Shifting her priorities to a more traditional homeschool, Jasmine's approach is both intentional and thoughtful as she transitions her older two kids from middle school to high school.

She has been homeschooling for seven years, originally in Pennsylvania before her family of six moved to Southeast Asia. Her two youngest attend the local school where they are immersed in a bilingual program of traditional Chinese and English. She is still responsible for teaching her younger children ELA.

Her family continues to adjust to their new lives, taking it one day at a time.

Della (02:11) This is a homeschool journey.

Della (03:12) hello, Jazz, welcome.

Jazz (03:15) Hello?

Della (03:15) I'm so glad that

you're here with me.

Jazz (03:18) I'm so glad to be here.

Della (03:19) I have started the previous podcast by talking about where people are and their requirements, but you were a little different because you moved your family from the United States to Taiwan. So I want start where you started homeschooling and then move to where you are now and the differences between that. So can you tell me what the requirements in Pennsylvania?

were for you to homeschool.

Jazz (03:48) Okay, so Pennsylvania was probably one of the more stricter states, just as far as what was required. Before you can homeschool, you have to have an affidavit that you give to the school district. And I would have to get that notarized every single year. I would do it online. then you have to submit your learning objectives. And then you're able to homeschool after that.

at the end of the homeschool year, you have to meet with an evaluator and they basically go through your portfolio and depending on the evaluator, depends on what you need to include in your portfolio. I had one who was kind of in the middle. So she required three samples of each subject just to see progression. And then she would interview the kids just to ask them how they enjoyed homeschool, what was their favorite thing about homeschool.

If they had any adventures they went on. She was very nice. And she told me I always submitted too much stuff. but I felt really good about it because I was really proud of our homeschool and all the things that we were able to accomplish. we do a lot of creative projects, which the public world doesn't see.

So being able to show those creative personal projects really meant something to me. I think she saw the pride in that because she would always comment like, these art projects are so good. I'm like, thank you, thank you so much. But that was as strict as it got. We didn't have anyone contact us or check in for the year.

The school district is allowed to do that. they are allowed to ask that you submit work within 30 days, but our district didn't. I didn't expect them to

do anything like that. Submitting paperwork and at the beginning of the year and then submitting the paperwork after we had our evaluation, for the most part was smooth. I think the district.

didn't really understand like, would you want to stay in homeschool? You know, why not send your kids to school? But I also had a child who was gifted. And so I think it was more of a, this will help our scores rather than, you know, your child would love to be here type of situation. The kids did, my two older kids,

Della (05:59) Yeah.

Jazz (06:06) did wind up going to school before we left for Taiwan the year previous. They did wind up going to school part time. My gifted child, she went for her gifted and talented classes and then they both went for band. They didn't really like it. I think the environment was just too chaotic for them. So they wind up leaving that portion.

my daughter still went to her gifted and talented classes and that was like the best. The teacher was amazing. It was amazing to hear how she took skills from home school and used them in that class. before we moved to Taiwan, we had planned to do it all over again. The kids were going to go to school part-time for certain subjects. We were going to try it because they requested. And my daughter was going to do her gifted and talented class. And then over the summer,

My husband was hired for an art teacher position in Taiwan and everything happened very quickly as you know. And then we moved here and it's been very different.

Della (07:09) Yeah, so when you were in Pennsylvania, how many children were you homeschooling?

Jazz (07:16) I have four children and I was homeschooling three.

my middle child, my second daughter, she was going to nursery school, so she would go to nursery school for a couple hours each day and she would come home and then we would do just a few lessons, mostly art projects, reading, walking around, going to the community garden.

going to our local library. then older two was a bit more formal.

Della (07:48) had a baby during this time, older now, but you also had a newborn in the mix of all this and eventually a toddler in the mix of all this.

Jazz (07:52) Yes.

Yes.

Yes, I had my fourth child. she was a new, fresh toddler. And I remember the trip here thinking I never want to do this again.

Della (08:13) I can imagine.

Jazz (08:15) Ha

Della (08:16) So how did you find yourself homeschooling? What was that path for you in Pennsylvania?

Jazz (08:23) I

I originally thought about homeschooling for my oldest and he's the only boy. So I was noticing that he just needed a little bit of extra time when it came to homework, when it came to practicing reading. I felt like the one-on-one environment might suit him. So we started the research.

But then, you know, as it goes, you start talking to people about it and then people kind of, because everyone, society tends to have negative ideas about homeschooling because they don't really know about homeschooling, just stuff based off of hearsay. And so we just kind of hung up the idea of homeschooling. It was just kind of like, okay, well, maybe we don't do this and we just try for the extra homework help and.

We'll just do our best with when he comes home. And then the pandemic happened we were one of the states that went on lockdown and everything happened so fast. I think this was everyone because no one knew what was going on. The information would change every single day. And we knew that there was a chance we would go on lockdown.

but there was no real plan in place. It was just kind of like, you'll go on lockdown and things will just close. And that's pretty much what happened. There was word out that we had some cases and there might be a potential lockdown. And then all of a sudden, the day before, they had told the kids, you know, make sure you bring your books bags, it was like, okay.

Kids brought their book bags. And then we got alerts on our phone saying you need to pick your kids up midday. And it was just like, okay. So it was.

Della (10:04) Wow.

Jazz (10:07) panic mode set in, it was very chaotic. Thankfully, we lived right down the street from the school. it was a three to five minute walk. I remember grabbing, the two young ones, running over to the school, grabbing the kids and their book bags being heavy. my daughter, she was doing a hybrid program. she was doing a school online.

then she would go to school for her specials. she was actually at school for her special. she came, we already had the laptop because she was doing online school. They came home and it was just like, now what? And my daughter, continued her online school. My son went.

we went to go pick up his Chromebook. And I was just in a shock in a daze because everything happened so fast. then I saw the work that they assigned my son and it was awful. It was online. It was, there was so much reading comprehension. Remind you, he's in second grade. So it was just paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs of information.

And then at the end, there's some multiple choice. Then there's this writing component. it was very different from what his school day looked like. His teacher who was phenomenal and I loved working with her was even like, this is, I don't know what this is. This is not what I would teach the kids. He struggled. He cried every single day. My daughter who was in cyber school and doing phenomenal,

we got no information from the principal from the cyber school. She was just doing the work. the teacher was actually the one to alert us, hey, they're gonna be closing down your school district and your daughter has to complete all of these assignments within two weeks. And it was a month worth of assignments that she had to complete in two weeks. So when that happened, they…

shifted her grade based off of her pacing. she had all A's, all of her scores went down to B's. And one was a high C and she was devastated. And anyone who has a gifted child knows like gifted kids can be very sensitive. And they also, some of them can struggle with perfectionism. And so for my daughter to

Della (12:06) Mmm.

Yes.

Jazz (12:22) the day before, see her grades and be proud of her work and see her grade. Like she had, in two classes, she had like 105%. And to see that go down to an 80, after you worked so hard for the majority of the year, she was devastated. I told her, listen, we're gonna fill everything, but then we're gonna get to work. And she worked hard. She worked really hard and got all her grades back up.

Was I angry at the school? Absolutely. Never heard from the cyber school principal. Even when we left to move here, It was crazy. while the kids were going through all of this, I spoke to my husband and I said, I think we might need to homeschool. I think this is a sign that we need to homeschool.

I looked into it. Of course, when you type in homeschool on Google, you're going to get all of the main homeschooling companies. You're going to get the top blogs. So I didn't know what secular and non-secular meant. I didn't know that there were different philosophies for homeschooling.

Della (13:25) I think a lot of people have been thinking of homeschooling before the pandemic and the pandemic was kind of their jumpstart. this is a good time for us to start. Nobody's going to criticize us right now. And then there were a whole group of people that…

I don't want to blame the schools. feel like they were doing the best with what they had available to them. And I feel like they really pivoted quickly for online schooling. But I think a lot of parents just weren't really happy with the online schooling option. And so that also prompted them to homeschool too. And some of those families

Jazz (13:49) Mm-hmm.

Della (14:09) went back to school and a lot of those families like found their home. You know, this is what we want to be doing. We really enjoyed homeschooling and they continued even after everything else opened up.

Jazz (14:22) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And I think that's what happened to us. My kids were also in a Title I School District. the resources were already not there. that was something that I also struggled with And something that I would discuss with the teachers, like…

Why don't these kids have everything that they need? And it's not the teacher's fault. And I would always tell the teachers, like, it has nothing to do with

I even with just trying to get my daughter signed up for Gifted and Talented, because with her, she went to kindergarten and it was just too easy. She came home, she hated it.

She cried and I said, okay, I think we might need to move you up. I spoke to the school about it and they gave me a hard time. They said, kids her age don't test for the gifted and talented program. We don't test kindergartners. And I was just like, okay, well, you're gonna test mine. I went back and forth with the school district they kept saying like, well, some kids are bright. So how do you know?

I was just like, know my kid and if she's bright, that's great. we'll do what we need to do when it's decided, but it's not been decided. we're going to test her. they just kept trying to put it off and tell me little kids can be smart. Some kids just come in knowing more, based off the parent. I understand that. I do. I know what you're saying, but we're still going to test her. finally they tested her with

essentially the district and the principal of the kindergarten center not believing me. There was a lot of doubt, but she was tested. I came in for a meeting and they were well, your child's gifted. I was wow, imagine that.

Della (15:53) So let's talk about that a little bit. let's talk about what it is like to homeschool a gifted child. Because I think a lot of people have a misconception and think they're just across the board, bright, get things easier, but there's definitely a flip side and there's

advantages and challenges to homeschooling a gifted child. Can you talk about that?

Jazz (16:21) absolutely. after she was tested, I remember we had this meeting with her teacher, the principal. then the gifted teacher and my husband. they were talking about what they could do for her in kindergarten. we can give her extra books. We can.

Give her extra worksheets. I sat there and I smiled and I listened, processing the information because I'm someone who I have to think about stuff first. I don't like to react because, sometimes you make bad decisions when you are heightened with emotion I sat there. The gifted and talented teacher sat there and she smiled. She looked at me and I was just like, okay, yep, I understand what you're saying. Yep, yep, yep.

Meeting ended, the gifted and talented teacher said, hey, take a walk with me. Took a walk with her and she said, is that what you want to do? And I said, absolutely not. Can we move her?

Della (17:10) Right.

Jazz (17:11) I was can she go to first grade? she said, absolutely. She was your child's gifted. We can do whatever we want. I felt so empowered. I felt like finally someone is validating my feelings. she's amazing. This woman was amazing. Amazing during our homeschool journey. I mean, I just absolutely adore this woman.

And she, the first thing she said to me is, I'm going to let you know that gifted kids, they don't all fit in a box they're not all the same. And we are going to do what's best for your daughter. At the end of the day, it's about her and how she learns. I really loved that. I loved that. It wasn't okay, here's what we're going to do. Bam, bam, bam. was, nope, we're going to figure it out and we're going to work together.

to do that so we are both supporting her. I love a good supportive teacher. Love them. And I was just like, okay, all right, let's do it.

Della (18:04) Mm-hmm.

about

gifted children in my experience they have something they excel in and then they have different things that are challenging to them.

Jazz (18:17) Yes,

absolutely, absolutely. So with my daughter, she processes information very quickly. And that's across the board. You can give her anything and something that would take a child maybe a few days to learn the concept. She can learn probably within 10 to 15 minutes. Even though she processes information quickly, there is also the downside of

Sometimes it's too quick and something tells her that whatever she's processed is 100 % correct. when she would do her work, sometimes if she got something wrong, she would struggle with it because it's like, no, I learned this, it's correct. And it's just like, no, it's not correct. And then there would be a shutdown and it was just like, okay, let's take a deep breath, let's take a break, we'll come back to it.

She's also ELA gifted. And I think another misconception is that gift of kids are gifted in all subjects. And that's just not the case. She has a few subjects she just does not like. She does not like math. She'll do it, but she doesn't like math and simple things in math she struggles with, like place values. It took us a really long time for her to understand place values, which you go like, what?

It's so simple, but that's just how her brain worked. Which was, surprising for us too, because we didn't know what it meant to have a gifted child. I had some idea from school. My husband was in the gifted program, but it was very different. I was in the honors program when I got to high school, and that was different. So we weren't really sure how to fully help her.

And that's why it was so important having that relationship with the gifted and talented teacher because she understood she understood where my daughter was coming from. It's going to be a process and you're going to learn.

Della (20:02) Mm-hmm.

We,

We all

learn No child is on par sixth grade for everything in every subject, but when you have a gifted there's more difference between the subjects, I think, which can make it a little more challenging because you may be doing ELA.

Jazz (20:20) Mm-hmm

Della (20:25) in high school level and then you're doing math normal fifth grade level. In addition to that, especially if you're gifted an ELA, you're looking at things where they can read and process and understand at a certain grade level, but the material is not age appropriate.

Jazz (20:46) Yes, and we've run into that a few times, especially in the beginning

because she advanced to first grade her teacher was great. I loved her first grade teacher. Then we moved to second grade and my husband and I had made the decision to put her in cyber school because then she had more autonomy over what she was learning because she was

processing information so quickly. So it was just like this is a great way for her to if she wants to move ahead, she can move ahead. If she needs more time in a subject, she has more time. She meets with the online teacher once a month, they go over stuff and then she's going to her gifted and talented classes.

Della (21:26) Okay. So your husband got a job in Taiwan and you guys uprooted and moved all the way across.

Jazz (21:28) Thank

Della (21:36) to literally the other side of the world. Tell me about that move.

Jazz (21:42) it was fast. We started the process. decided, I remember June 3rd, talking about it. Homeschool IG connected us to someone who lived here, who became a good friend. I just remember I was working at like five o'clock in the morning and I stood there and I was like, you know what?

I think it's time we move. I remember messaging my husband, how do you feel about Taiwan? Because it was on our list. had a whole list of places, countries we were considering moving to. I just remember I had this thought, well, what about Taiwan? I know someone who's lived in Taiwan. he said, OK, yeah, let's look into it.

I came home and I messaged that person and she lived in Australia I messaged her and I was hey, what can you tell me about Taiwan? in the course of a few hours, she sent me so much information. She sent me voice recordings, she sent me links, she sent me all of this stuff.

I gave it to my husband. he said, I'll look at it. I said, no, no, no, I need you to look at it when you have the time. that night he listened to the voice messages. He looked at all the links and he was I think we can do this.

I think we can do this too. we talked a little bit more about it she just kept sending us information. at the end of those two weeks after doing the research, after talking about it, going back and forth, we were like, okay, let's do this. So we started the process, getting paperwork, moving to another country. A lot of people think you just need a passport. You don't, you have to authenticate everything.

You have to authenticate your children's birth certificates. You have to authenticate your unabridged marriage license. We also needed to get passports. It was a

he submitted his applications for cram school, which are after school programs, essentially. he submitted his application with teaching agencies. immediately these places started reaching out, which shocked both of us. he did a total of three interviews.

Two with the teaching company one with a cram school company. And because of the time, the one agency was okay, we're gonna keep your application on file, which is what we expected because typically they hire people between April and May. the chances of him getting a job were very slim.

then the cram school company, they didn't want to hire him because he had a family. they asked them during the interview, are you coming by yourself or are you trying to bring your family? said, well, I want to bring my family. I think that was kind of like a, that's a lot of more trouble than it's worth. then the last agency said, okay, we're going to go forward with you. we actually have a position.

we found out that night they loved he was hired and it was just like this is happening and by the end of September we were on a plane to Taiwan.

Della (24:34) and you had to downsize tremendously.

Jazz (24:38) Everything. We gave up everything.

Della (24:42) how many suitcases.

Jazz (24:44) We were allowed two suitcases. They had to be 50 pounds. You could have a personal bag and a carry-on. we are a family of six and that was 24 pieces of luggage.

All of our entire life had to be packed in these two places.

Della (24:59) Well, I have to say,

I think the hardest part would be choosing which books you're going to take and getting rid of most of your books.

Jazz (25:09) It, yes. I had over 12 bookcases and I remember going through all the books and saying, okay, what could I repurchase? you saw it, I sold a bunch of books I was really grateful to the IG homeschool community because I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to sell anything.

it really helped us out a lot to downsize. all the popular books that I knew I could find anywhere online, those were the first to go. And then my history collection, which I had worked years looking for books and building this collection, I had to figure out who could I trust with it to hold onto it so we could pay for it to be shipped over here.

we didn't really care about things. We knew we were starting our lives over. let's pack the clothes we think we need.

Let's see where all that fits. We vacuum sealed all of our clothes it's hot. we don't really need to carry winter clothes. I wish we had carried more hoodies to be honest, because the winter here is like a cold humid and it's only 50 degrees, it's bone chilling cold.

we filled some up with books. It would be like half books, half the wooden boards from Jack and Link, which was really funny.

because my kids were like, is this really Do you really need this?

Della (26:25) And as a homeschool mom, you're like,

yes, I cannot leave without my Jack and Link toy.

Jazz (26:31) Yeah. I was just like, I have invested money and they are coming with us. what was crazy was every suitcase had books. So would be, we pack half books, half clothes, something sentimental. And this was every single suitcase. And then it was just like a couple Jack and Link products. And then everyone's carry on had Jack and Link products because I was just like, what if our suitcases get lost or what if they don't arrive or make it?

I can't, I'm not losing this stuff, so I packed it in our carry-on.

Della (27:00) Well, and those in this case have come in really handy because your printer is broken.

Jazz (27:04) They have.

they have. But it was something.

Della (27:08) Right. So what was the transition

like from the States to Taiwan? I really felt like it took you about a year to get your feet under you.

Jazz (27:20) absolutely. because I'm a realist and I don't like surprises, I predicted it would take us a year just to adjust. and then when we got here, I was like, it's going to take us two years. We moved to a rural city even though I want to say a good portion of people speak English, at the time it was just like, whoo, huge culture shock.

even for me, because I had moved around, I was a military brat. So I thought like, I'll adjust very quickly. just trying to figure out where places were, translating, I didn't even think about how long it would take to translate just simple texts. That took forever. every day we would go, okay, let's plan to go to the grocery store.

we're going to conquer the grocery store. would come up with a plan how we would do that. that would be our week mission.

Della (28:10) a major transition because what I've learned from you is that it's sometimes easier, healthier, and cheaper to eat out.

Jazz (28:12) Yeah!

Yes, most people don't have kitchens. Most people don't have as we've learned later on, you can go and pick up stuff from vendors, but it really is just super cheap to go and get a little container from a bento place or get fried rice or get dumplings. it's incredibly cheap. Now we're a family of six, so it evens out depending on who we're all trying to feed.

we could do groceries or we could eat out. It's going to be even regardless. let's eat out just adjusting to that, trying to figure out where can we get food from?

becoming accustomed to the food here. I was never a big fast food person. our first couple of weeks we weren't eating 7-Eleven, we were eating McDonald's because it was familiar. I was so glad when we started finding food places, because I cannot eat anymore McDonald's. cannot.

Della (29:15) Bye.

Jazz (29:16) I can't do this anymore. it was just one of the few options we had because it was familiar to the kids. We had a few picky eaters. Also, we have kids with allergies. And there was a worry of nuts being in the food. So one of my children, was just eating chicken nuggets almost every meal.

Della (29:35) Yeah, I can imagine that

would, you I share your food allergy problem. And that is the hang up for me with traveling, especially with the language barrier. Like, how would you know that the food is safe?

Jazz (29:50) Right, as we started to adjust more, I think the next place we went to was the night market. It was right down the street. We found out about it so you have all these stands, all this food, and we would have it translated on our phone. Do you have nuts in the food? Son has nut allergy. it was just that simple.

they would read it and some would say like no no no like you know no don't let him eat it and then some are like no okay, okay and That's pretty much how we did it for the first few months once we started getting more comfortable with the food and Different stands and vendors then it was just like okay. Well. This is this is what we're doing

But the language barrier was huge for us because anywhere we went there was some form of translation some form of us holding up phones and taking pictures to translate in the Something that would take five minutes would take us 30 minutes to an hour we're very humble people and we were grateful to be here but there were some days where it's incredibly frustrating because

You want to do something like run an errand, go pick some stuff up, you're translating everything. this has taken a really long time.

Della (30:57) can imagine. Yeah,

that that would be a big barrier. What are some other significant differences that you guys noticed?

Jazz (31:08) everyone was immediately friendly, in PA, we had moved around to different places because we were trying to figure out, where can we get our forever home? there was no place that quite felt right for us.

people are not quick to warm up, at least in Pennsylvania, because I also lived in South Carolina and people are very friendly in South Carolina. But here was a different kind of level nobody wanted to see us struggle. everyone was very quick to jump in. do you need anything? Do you need help? We came home with so much food almost every single day. Someone was giving us stuff, especially realizing that we were.

new foreigners here. I remember walking home from an errand and some guy pulled his car over and was like, Hey, hey, where are you from? And I was like, America. And he was like, okay. He was like, are you new? I was like, yes. And he's like, welcome. And then he handed me his lunch.

Della (32:04) That is so heartwarming.

Jazz (32:05) His little shirt.

It was, it was a bit alarming because you just don't expect someone to order, you know, in the States somebody pulls their car over, you think you're getting kidnapped. I was just like, like, whoa, what is happening here? I was ready to fight this man.

Della (32:10) Right.

And you also had moved right before Lunar New Year. So what was that like in Taiwan?

Jazz (32:33) we got here at the end of September. So we still had some time. what was funny was when we moved here, it was still typhoon season. even in the beginning, my husband had to work a lot and then they had a ton of holidays. it was would go to work and then he'd be like, okay, Jazz, I'm off for two days. then he'd go to work for a couple of days. He's like, oh, there's a holiday.

And then he would go and then come back. He's like, there's a typhoon day. And I was like, when are you going to work? When are you going to do what you're supposed to do? then Lunar New Year comes up and that's, I believe, the winter break. And it's a month. for us, that was actually wonderful because things close.

Everyone goes back home to spend time with their families. To me, it's very quiet. My Chinese tutor says it's very quiet on the outside, but inside everyone is very loud. It's a party and stuff. But for us, it was a chance to explore where we lived. And that's where we started learning where things were. Because we would just walk. We would just walk our neighborhood. We would walk around the city park.

just learning about different places. this is where this store is and this is where this vendor is. it was great. we started to feel more comfortable Homeschool was a little different. it was trickier. I did not anticipate that living here would be so difficult. And then the kids…

their eyes are wide open dealing with emotions and change. you don't know until you experience it. I had one child who really struggled with moving here in the change. My older two kids were great, but at the same time we were learning about the education system. certain parts felt daunting to them. And I have a toddler.

who's in a new place and it's just like, I want to be outside. why are we inside? I don't want to be here. that was tricky. The first six months were really hard for us as far as homeschool goes. I had books, but I didn't have a printer at the time. Once again, homeschool IG moms, just amazing. I had met a group of women.

through Jack and Link. they were so supportive and so helpful. we were actually able to get a printer because of them. which I'm very appreciative and grateful for. I remember sending them a message like, I got a printer. But.

Della (34:51) Right, and

that's a big deal because you're limited in the curricula that you can get there.

Jazz (34:59) Right, no one ships here and then if they offer digital, it's PDF so you have to print it. Honestly, the only way you can get a lot of stuff is through Amazon and that's a process too. You have to go through an app to get your packages and stuff and it gets easy once you set everything up but I had to set everything up

I have to figure out. Like I brought books, thankfully. I had our next unit that we were studying. I was grateful that I had foresight to think what will we need in case we don't have access to certain things? But it was wow, we're not in Kansas anymore.

Curriculum is not as accessible as I thought it was and once again, I just have I don't know what it is, but I Just made so many amazing friends through IG including you and talking to everyone and everyone saying okay, what do you need? just having that support

really helped because I was stressing.

Della (36:01) land? What curricula did you choose? What could you get a hold of? How did that influence your homeschooling?

Jazz (36:08) I knew we could count on Core Knowledge because it's free, it's online and then from there, just reaching out to friends and teacher friends and what they had available, I

was able to get curriculum through school districts from teacher friends. I can start putting together a plan. I also had children who had entered into middle school. And so we're dealing with preteens. I have a new teenager now. it's just like the emotional part of that.

Now we're trying to focus on the academic portion. Honestly, the homeschool community just really had my back. we were able to put something together. But just all the changes and the emotional part of those changes, I think, affected our homeschool as well. it was really hard for the kids to get into it.

Della (37:02) the aspect that I know from talking to you also has been that

It has sent you on a path of homeschooling that looks a little more like school than some other homeschoolers.

Jazz (37:16) Yes, I was. an eclectic homeschooler, but I was always on the side of old textbooks, getting curriculum through school districts. My kids were going part time to school, so I would look at what was available from the school district just because I was a huge fan of if we don't have to reinvent the wheel, let's not do it. So if there's a teacher guide to it.

and know the text is here then this works. And I felt comfortable with it. Also from my daughter's cyber school days, it came with a teacher guide. and there was a learning curve. so I learned how to use textbooks and learn how to implement lessons through textbooks, knew what to cross out when there was like group collaboration, all of that. I felt comfortable with it.

way more comfortable than I guess any other philosophy because I just feel like there is a learning curve with every single philosophy and you have to invest a lot of time in these philosophies, to understand them, to understand how you're going to implement them. I was just in a spot where I don't have time to do that. We're going to stick with what we know.

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Della (41:38) Well, I think initially in the beginning of your homeschool journey too, there was this lingering option of going back to school.

Jazz (41:48) Yes.

Della (41:49) And that eventually

shifted. you have a family that is planning on going back into the school system, then I think it's worthwhile to look at that option. As a homeschool coach, I have seen a wide variety of different homeschooling options. And as soon as I see somebody say, you should never do it this way,

there's a family that needs to do it that exact way. For some reason, it fits their needs. so I've learned not to judge

Jazz (42:24) Great.

I absolutely agree. And I think a lot of times when we make the decision to homeschool, when you first start out, you already have an idea of what you want your homeschool to look like. And then it becomes something completely different after you get your feet wet, and then you're in your second and third year. I

would probably agree that most people who start, one, have no clue what they're doing, and two, know, pick options that don't necessarily work for their families at first, because they don't know.

Della (42:55) Most definitely. It takes two

to three years, I think, to really adjust until you have a homeschooling environment that really fits your family.

Jazz (43:08) Right, absolutely. I tried different methods. I tried different philosophies, but I just kept coming back to traditional way. And I also realized the kind of person I was as a teacher to my kids. And I knew that if I wanted to make it more engaging more rich, I couldn't have doubt.

about what I was teaching, if I'm questioning, this enough? Am I doing the right thing? Then it was taking away from our homeschool and we weren't able to have these other experiences. I needed

to feel confident in the stuff that I was using. because I was so familiar with the textbook style, I rarely had questions. Whenever I was using any type of curriculum from a school district, there was hardly any questions of, this enough? Because it's all laid out, it's all right here. Now history was a little different and I had to just go through different histories. Right, so.

Della (44:02) Yeah, let's talk about history.

Jazz (44:07) I mean, everyone knows, the majority of history, depending on where you live, is very much whitewashed. There is history that is just the key points. So you're not focusing on the behind the scenes and how these movements came to be with these different people. I learned just as much history, new information, as the kids did. I remember…

we were learning about the women's suffrage. I knew Susan B. Anthony. I was seeing the pictures, it was all white women. I just assumed, okay, that's who the movement was for. But then homeschool, right.

Della (44:42) Nah, were all kinds of, yeah.

Well, even well before Susan B. Anthony, Sojourner Truth was talking about that kind of equality for women.

Jazz (44:57) Right. I came to all of this stuff because of homeschool because I remember purchasing some books to pair with the the unit that we were looking at. in this book, it was about the women behind the movement. there is indigenous women, Asian women, Black women. whoa. then I learned about the racism in

the women's suffrage movement.

Della (45:20) that was a surprising thing to me. I also did not learn that till homeschooling. there was racism in the suffrage movement. they were leaving a lot of the African American women out of the equation.

Jazz (45:35) Right. some of the leaders of the movement, Susan B. Anthony was friends with Frederick Douglass. we had learned about Ida B. Wells. Ida B. Wells critiqued the movement. She critiqued the racism. There was another woman. I feel like I'm going to get these names wrong, but I believe her name, first name was Francis, and she was very racist.

And she didn't like that Ida B. Wells was speaking out. And so she spoke to Susan B. Anthony about it. she asked Frederick Douglass, like, hey, can you talk to Ida? Which I found completely like, wow, really? To someone you can't even talk to yourself, you know? And like, tell her to calm down, essentially.

Like, excuse me? No. I don't know if it's the fire energy in me, but I was just like, absolutely not. IG was becoming popular at that time too, and someone else was sharing this story. they felt the same way, like, can you believe this? we learned about Ida B. Wells and everything she went through with journalism and lynchings and writing about them and being threatened.

Della (46:38) Mm-hmm.

Jazz (46:38) So,

homeschool really opened our eyes to there's a whole other world of history out there. I wanted to be a truth seeker in history, because I would look at something and I would say, okay, this happened, but what happened behind it? And who are the people involved? And whenever any movement, any major event, I would always look for the voices.

that weren't there. it opened my eyes to the fact that we really don't know anything about history. Like a lot of us really don't know.

Della (47:12) Well, history is a challenging

in and of itself because you can't cover everything. You're having to pick and choose anyway. But it's been, in my experience, it's been so Eurocentric and we have the opportunity to broaden that up into different points of view, different

Jazz (47:23) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely. And I think the first step in even just building a history curriculum is just realizing that we're all ignorant to it, in some way, unless you were raised to seek these things out. But I think most of us as adults all kind of had the same education when it came to history. And even with me, my mom, she got a set of

encyclopedias, Black American encyclopedias. And I remember reading through the encyclopedias and thinking like, I know everything about Black history and how wrong I was because I didn't. information is always changing and more things are being uncovered. I realized, if I'm going to go into this, if I'm going to give my children this information and this knowledge, I need to go into this with the idea that I know nothing.

Della (48:12) Yeah.

Jazz (48:27) and I'm relearning everything. And that is what has helped us with really loving learning is looking up this information, discovering new things together and just that joy and that wonder of like, wow, can you believe this happened and having those conversations? History is one of my favorite subjects, even as a kid. And

I feel like that's also what has kept me homeschooling as well because when you start including all these voices, you realize we're just a speck. We're just a speck on this planet and everybody has thoughts, opinions, ideas, points of view, some helpful, some not. And it's just like collectively.

we make up these larger systems and these larger ideas and principles is truly something to be respected and honored.

Della (49:21) What are some things that you

look for when you're teaching? What are some underlying currents or understandings that you're looking for? What kind of things do you look to include when you're teaching history?

Jazz (49:35) Well, the first thing is there's no perfect history curriculum. We know this. the first thing is a spine. I'm looking for a spine it's not gonna have every thought and idea and every marginalized voice, but at least some acknowledgement.

if I'm looking at a textbook, there has to be some acknowledgement, that other people exist, essentially, and some truth behind some of these events. once I found that spine, okay, what can we add to it? So then that's when I sit down and I'm just like, okay, who's not here? Who's not front row and center? And I will, I will go through every ethnicity looking to see

were these voices there during this event and it's just not included. I will find their stories. I will find other stories accounts of those events through a different point of view. I will include those stories. I will look for media about what happened.

use what I've learned through TV and television, watching shows that left an impact on me that could correlate of those events. would also think about how do we see ourselves in history because we're all a part of history. Even if…

it seems like, in the smallest ways, we were all making history. And how can I include my children in that so that they understand why things have happened and shifted the way that they have. it would go from this spine or this textbook, and then we'd be surrounded by 20 different books. I would have a playlist on YouTube of different things to watch. And then I would

throw in some TV shows and then I would throw in an art project because the arts are so important. So now we have this art project and then I'm throwing music and that's how we review history.

Della (51:29) are all

aspects I tried to do too. I'm not, I really tried to do a little bit of music but I wish I was better at that.

Jazz (51:39) my husband is a graphic designer, I was a photographer, my mother is incredibly creative and I think that it was just there for us. Like my husband played the bass guitar so, not that that has anything to do with anything but.

Della (51:53) Well, it does. It does because you are exposed to music, you're seeking it out, you have a certain level of knowledge, and it makes it easier for you.

Jazz (51:59) Right.

And I think that something that we often discredit is who we were before homeschool. so before homeschool, we were a family that would wake up to music in the morning. we would go to bed to music. it was ingrained in our daily living. We would play jazz music while we were eating. my husband would play rock music as he's getting the kids.

to bed that was just our everyday life so then when it came to incorporating music and to our homeschool it was just like well second nature it just makes sense. So I always tell homeschoolers like who are you before you homeschool and add that because that's equally as important you know like don't give them

Della (52:46) It is really important.

And I think it's also really important to include your own needs in your homeschooling. It's easy for us to include the needs of our children because we're so focused on them. But I think it's also important to be introspective and view your own needs and then make adaptations for those needs as well.

Jazz (53:14) Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Della (53:16) Taiwan, what were the requirements for homeschooling for you

Jazz (53:23) well, it's definitely different. When you are a foreigner, there are no requirements. Because I think…

Della (53:30) Well,

that's an extreme way to get out of accountability for homeschooling.

Jazz (53:34) right. it's not that they don't have, a homeschool board here. They do, but they don't expect you to stay long. Or if you are a foreigner, a professional, foreigner, you're putting your kid in a bilingual school or an international school. I think that's the assumption. and there are foreigners who homeschool, but.

You don't register with anyone. Now, if you do decide to register, I think what a lot of people don't know is they give you one chance to register as a foreign student. And that's across the board. K through 12 college. Once you register, that's it. I think for college you get two times. But once you register as a foreigner, then you've used that option up.

when you are applying to the next level of school, you are considered a local. if you register your child through homeschool or even in school, depending on the your child has to take the Chinese standardized test.

And that was something that I learned when I got here. it was quite a shock because I was hoping to register with the homeschool board and put all my kids in school part-time because that was the plan before we left. then realizing like, I could register my older kids and they would be held to the same standards as the local students here. And.

are not prepared for that at all. They do not know traditional Chinese. Yeah.

Della (55:00) All of your children are currently

learning Chinese, right? Yeah.

Jazz (55:04) Yeah, yes.

And it was like, whoa. So we had to think about things. had to change, change a few ideas and thoughts of how we thought we were going to approach homeschool. My older two are still homeschooling. My younger two are in the public school education system.

and then they after school because I still have to teach them ELA. and that's always fun. It was funny because I put them in school and I'm like they're in school. Yay. I just have to help with homework. And then it was like way.

They're no ELA Everything's in Chinese, duh.

Della (55:42) Yeah.

Right?

Jazz (55:45) But there is no oversight. So for me, having oversight and being used to oversight, was just like, this feels very uncomfortable actually. No one's checking in, no one's anything. I remember evaluator,

She decided she wasn't gonna evaluate anymore, but she had other options. So I reached out to one of those options and I said, I know I don't live in PA anymore, but would you still check our schoolwork? Would you still do a portfolio check? So I have some connections. Somebody is looking over what we're doing. And this woman said, yeah, sure, I can do that for you.

Della (56:21) That is

so interesting to me. You are the second person in our interview that has told me that they have looked outside for portfolio evaluations in just checking to make sure you're on the right track with your kids.

Jazz (56:39) I would say because I need it. I need that accountability. I know everyone says it's lifelong learning, it's all together. But for me, homeschool educating, I looked at it as a job. And the reason for that is because every job I worked, I had excellent work ethic. But as a mom, I'm good, but.

You know, I have my moments as most mothers do. So I was just like, I'm a good mom, but I'm an excellent worker. when I was approaching homeschool, I have to look at this as a job because if I look at this as part of motherhood, we are not going to do as well.

Della (57:02) What don't we all?

Jazz (57:16) and I took it seriously. So when I would send in my portfolio reviews, I'm reporting to management I got to show them the best of the best. and moving here and having nothing, I was just like, no, cause I'm going to slip. I'm going to slide. I'm not going to take this seriously.

need someone I need to report to. I need the accountability. Now I know some homeschoolers would say, you know, that's that, Traditional mindset, that's the Rockefeller mindset of school to work and probably have several arguments But

I like having an excellent work ethic and I like having someone to check over the things that I'm doing I like criticism when it's, constructive,

Della (57:57) We really appreciate

our portfolios too. Not only is it helpful to have somebody review the work, but usually the evaluators are so knowledgeable and so helpful in any questions that you have or any insights that you might not have thought about. They are really excellent in filling in those gaps, gaps you may not have even known about.

Jazz (58:15) Mm-hmm.

Della (58:23) let's switch gears a little bit and talk about homeschooling teens because they are a whole different ballgame. Their circadian rhythms change. sometimes their demeanors change. Sometimes their needs change. So what's it like homeschooling teens?

Jazz (58:43) I would say it is a double edged sword and not in the way you love talking to my teens. I love listening to their thoughts and ideas and I love seeing who they're becoming, who they could potentially become. I think even more than children, there is a lot more emotional support.

but you're also giving your teenager more autonomy and you are allowing them to make more decisions and make more mistakes. the natural consequences of things sometimes can be a little tricky to navigate because in your mind as an adult, you're thinking I wouldn't have made that decision, but they have to learn, I got to.

respectfully, not helicopter and hover. absolutely love just watching the gears and watching them grow. It's going too fast. I think the negative part of it is how society views teens and adapting to that. Because

It changes. Everything changes. When you have children, there's so much joy and whimsy and magic. even here, everyone loves kids. They have Children's Day. there's its brightness and so much color and it's beautiful. And then your kids become teenagers and the world has said, OK, work.

That's it. go do stuff. it breaks my heart because just listening to my teens, be interested in things and ask these questions that I would never think to ask or

Della (1:00:09) Yeah.

Jazz (1:00:20) Just even sitting and watching TV with my teenagers jokes that we laugh at and the things that they're starting to get, they care too. Yeah, they care too.

Della (1:00:26) They're awesome! Teens are so amazing! I mean, you

get to have these amazing, deep conversations that you would never think to talk about. You get to see their personalities show through and they are so witty and so funny and they're so cute. yes, they're so creative. Yes.

Jazz (1:00:38) Right.

and creative.

Della (1:00:52) And there is all the other things that go along with that, navigating the emotions or whatever, but there is a real prejudice against young people that they're often assumed to be up to no good or given the benefit of the doubt. But I really enjoy teaching and having teens as well and young adults. Yeah.

Jazz (1:01:07) Mm-hmm.

Right.

And they're not allowed to be idle, which I feel like is actually detrimental to becoming an adult because I was an adult that didn't understand rest and know what rest meant. And I feel like it starts when we become teenagers.

It's just go, go, go, go, go. You have to prepare for your future. it feels like there's no breaks and seeing my kids just be bored because when you have younger kids and they're bored and it's like, mom, I'm bored. go find something to do, then you watch what they create and build but for teenagers, no one wants them to be idol. It's go do something.

go be in this sport or this club. we start to overload them with things because we don't want them to stop. But homeschooling has allowed for the kids to stop and pause and process. we've talked about the talents and the skills that have come from that. with my daughter, who I didn't know could draw.

all of my kids draw with my husband. It's something they do on the weekends. she's self-taught. in those moments of quiet, in those moments of pause, she taught herself how to draw. now, her work is amazing. It's beautiful. it's just because she could be idle, she could be bored. She was given that space to do

should absolutely have that. we should continue that in adulthood. our teens need that. They want to draw too. They want to color. They still want to color in the coloring books.

Della (1:02:48) Right, right. So what are

some adjustments that like I know for us there was adjustment in time. My daughter got up a little later, but she was also not

out mentally, maybe emotionally ready for school until later. we're not even checking in until 11 o'clock. And then there's also a lot more autonomy in the teen years. So maybe talk a little bit about that.

Jazz (1:03:20) I have one child who loves getting up early and then the other child does not. And as someone who has start and end times when it comes to homeschooling different subjects, that can be a little tricky and it's like, okay, so we have to meet in the middle.

because I can't start too early because then one child will be left out and I can't start too late because now this child has hours upon hours of free time and they're waiting to start school and they want to. the time thing is a big deal. I think the mental part too of just wanting to start the day, watching them

get ready for the day, make breakfast and stuff. it's like what you were saying earlier about you need your coffee first before anything can start.

Della (1:04:02) Yeah, I don't think we were recording yet, but I was saying, I need my coffee

and I don't know that it's so much about the coffee. It probably could be any warm, rich liquid, but I need 30 minutes to an hour to myself before I have, can you do this or do you know where this is?

Jazz (1:04:23) Right.

Right. And I think it's the same with the teenagers. they need those moments in the beginning I'm awake. I'm here. I'm about to start learning. our homeschool times have shifted from there was one time we were starting at 1030 because it was just like, it just had to be like that. Because it was like by the time.

they were waking up and they were ready. It was now 1030. I think the other thing was literature change for us. The kids, as much as they appreciate the literature that would go along with some of their subjects, they also had an interest and a curiosity about the world. I had to start incorporating books that I was reading into our homeschool.

And like we read Atomic Habits together. And they were just like, wow, that information was really helpful. like, thank you, mommy. And I was just like, okay. Okay, we started incorporating more philosophy books. We read.

remember the title but it's by Tabitha Brown and it was like I tried a new thing and so the kids really love listening to that audiobook we got two-thirds of the way through it we definitely need to finish it they still read picture books and children books and stuff but also like being interested in the self-help books

and trying to figure out who they are and listening to the audiobooks The other change was just being the observer in their life and seeing the things that they were interested in. your kids say, I want to be this when I grow up. you take the paths to help them like, oh, OK, you want to be this? Well, here's some text. Here's some activities and stuff.

but just like even noticing what the kids are watching. my son, was watching a lot of YouTube videos about computer science and coding. are you interested in this? And he was just like, yeah. was like, we can do stuff if you want. And my daughter started watching house and I was like, are you interested in medical stuff?

Della (1:06:03) Mm-hmm.

Jazz (1:06:23) now she is doing anatomy and physiology. I'm not guiding them. I'm watching. They are the captains of their ship and I am the first mate.

Della (1:06:33) what has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?

Jazz (1:06:36) time. I think time has been the biggest challenge. I realize that there is more time behind us than ahead of us. And in my mind, I just keep thinking there's so much for me to teach you. There's still so much for teach you.

Della (1:06:56) feel that.

Jazz (1:06:57) And it's hard.

Della (1:06:58) I honestly

don't think you could ever teach it all. My son is in college and I still have that feeling.

Jazz (1:07:05) Yes, and so then you are stuck with this decision of well, what can I teach you that's going to have the most impact? I think that has been hard for me because the world is changing faster than I can keep up with and the kids are learning this information faster than I can keep up with I

Della (1:07:21) Mm-hmm.

Jazz (1:07:28) can't predict their futures. I don't know what's going to happen. there is this worry of, well, if I teach you this one thing, then is that even going to apply when you become an adult? I feel like you hear this clock in your head of tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. that's what I struggle with.

we started a new thing. We're doing cultural studies. I felt like that was my way of giving back to the kids and giving them this wider insight into how the world works. Because when we moved here, it's not Western civilization. It's not the Eurocentric type of society. It's different here. They still use

Confucius practices here. they even have an event where you honor your elders and you wash their feet. we just got a notice for that, being part of the community and showing respect and honor to our elders and showing, you know,

how much we appreciate all the hard work that they've put in for future generations. And so you wash their feet as a sign of respect. And that's very I'm looking and I'm like, no, you guys need to learn so many different perspectives because even when they leave home,

they'll continue to seek out information and want to hear other stories and experiences, and not judge and not be quick to react and that's how I've been contending with this time that's going so fast is how can I make learning more insightful for you that you keep doing it when you leave home?

Della (1:09:01) How do we cultivate

lifelong learners?

Jazz (1:09:05) Right, I just want them to appreciate life and live it and not be burdened by it.

Della (1:09:13) And that's something that

I have found myself doing with the teens also is protecting that time for enjoying the life that you're in right now and not being completely focused on what comes next, but enjoying where you are now. And I heard that when you were talking.

about your teens as well.

Jazz (1:09:40) Right, and we do. like we have moments where we'll watch, you know, just watch TV together. We are watching BBC shows and Masterpiece Theatre. And typically you would think like a teenager is interested in that. If you want to watch these stuffy British shows, you know, from the outside looking in. But I add my personality to it. You know, I tell the kids the tea is hot.

And we add our own little car. It's an experience. The kids always say, because they'll sit there when it first starts. they'll go, my goodness. OK, what are we watching? And then I'll just pop in and be like, he read her for Phil. Can you believe that? And they'll look at me be like, well, what do you mean?

Della (1:10:09) Watch Masterpiece with you.

Jazz (1:10:28) Or like if there's a love interest and I'm like, he's standing 10 toes down for my girl. Yes, get him, honey. I'm like, you better get your man. And my teens are just like, what? What do you mean? And then they start to participate. They're like, he didn't deserve her. Cut him loose, See, this is why I couldn't get married. And it's just like, starts to get conversation.

Della (1:10:49) I

love that they start participating.

Jazz (1:10:53) And my son who because we watch, you know, we watch like the Pride and Prejudice shows and stuff, what people would consider like very feminine shows. he'll be in his room when we start them. And then he'll hear us hooting and hollering. And so he doesn't want to say like, I want to watch these with you. So what he'll do is he'll grab an iPad or his gaming console, and he'll slowly start to edge his way.

And then he'll sit there and then all of sudden he'll start asking questions. well, why did she do that? Well, why is she over there? Well, who is that? What's going on? And I'm just like, you're interested. And so we start including him in the conversation. And by the end of the show, he's just like, I can't believe she picked him. my goodness. He's terrible for her. she's making bad life choices. And my daughter and I are just like.

Della (1:11:28) interest.

Jazz (1:11:41) cracking up laughing behind her hands. I think like a lot of times too with teenagers, we think we're supposed to have big core moments, right? Like we're supposed to make these huge gestures of I'm your parent and I love you so much. And I just want you to understand that. And let's have this huge moment. And it's, doesn't have to be that.

Della (1:11:44) Cheers.

Jazz (1:12:00) It can simply be sitting on the couch watching a TV show, making jokes, cracking jokes, you know, or going to the night market and talking about the interactions we've had or food.

Della (1:12:05) A quiet presence. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Well, and listening

to them when they talk, it's a lot of the same on a different level than it was when they were young. Almost every night when I get ready for bed, my daughter comes into my room and that's when she wants to talk and she just tells me all kinds of things. And I think the important thing is to be present.

Jazz (1:12:18) Yes!

It is.

yeah.

Della (1:12:42) I make a point to put down my phone when my children walk into the room, regardless of what I'm doing, and be there and listen.

Jazz (1:12:42) Mm-hmm.

And they love it. They love inside jokes. They love having inside jokes, especially when they feel like, oh, I'm a part of this. I think our biggest joke right now is every time someone coughs or sneezes because one child's watching house. So when my husband and I are going, oh, do think it's allergies and it gets a cold? And she'll scream out, is it lupus?

Della (1:12:54) They do.

Mm-hmm.

LUPUS?

Jazz (1:13:18) Because on Houzz, the beginning of the episode, they would go, well maybe it's loop heads.

And so it's just… And so it's just… And I mean, Lupus is very serious thing. But they would say like, they would ask like, is it Lupus? And they would… Multiple episodes are like this. So she would scream.

Della (1:13:24) did not see that coming.

Yes it is. I have a friend with it. Yes it is.

That's hilarious.

Jazz (1:13:44) And then everyone would start laughing like, okay. But it's just having that and just like having that joy. You know, they can be very serious people too, you know? So it's just moments.

Della (1:13:55) Yeah, well,

you have taught me that a lot is to seek out joy.

Jazz (1:14:01) Always, always, the other thing is we're leading by example and everything is so hard. And when the kids watch us succumb to the negative, they still have to grow up in this world too. they look at it like, it's hopeless. But I'm like, no, there's always hope. There is always a small moment.

Della (1:14:02) always.

Jazz (1:14:24) life is always happening somewhere and even if it's just a minute or two, it's still happening. So I do try to prioritize the joy. I still make room for all the other emotions, anger, sadness, grief, and we've lost people. So understanding grieving has been important in our home.

Della (1:14:47) okay.

Last question for today. What was something that surprised you in your homeschool journey?

Jazz (1:14:55) that I would put so much of myself in it because you know this I'm a very private person when it comes to homeschool and the things that I hold near and dear to my heart like my love of history The way that I lead our morning conversations or even when we're starting a new book.

it's not stiff, I know that people view us when they see us as traditional homeschoolers, they immediately think public school at home, but it's not that at all. It's how we implement those lessons. And so I put so much of my personality and the quirkiness and the awkwardness and weirdness and stuff. All of that is ingrained in these lessons. And I show up as myself.

And I don't even think about it. it's just like, and so then when they're repeating information back and when we're, you know, I'm trying to see gauge how much information they retain, I often find that they retain the information where it felt personal and they felt included. And it's like, you know, they remember the other stuff too, but then they'll go, remember when we were sipping tea and you were talking about, you were talking about.

Della (1:16:04) yeah, yeah, we have those too, yeah.

Well, Jazz, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I've really enjoyed our conversation.

Jazz (1:16:17) Thank you for having me.

Della (1:16:19) Yeah,

and for anybody listening, can find any links, resources, and information on the website, thebeautyofplay.com forward slash podcast. There'll be a whole page of that information from today's discussion with Jazz.

Jazz (1:16:37) Yay!

Della (1:16:39) Thank you so much for listening today. If you can, leave us a review and share this podcast with a friend. Next week, we'll talk with Tanya about homeschooling a child with ADHD, transitioning back into middle school and high school after homeschooling, and her advice for first-time homeschoolers. We'll see you next week.

Hana is deeply passionate about homeschooling and has been cultivating a rich, nurturing learning environment for her children since 2003. Drawing from her own strengths and creativity, she’s built a sustainable and inspiring homeschool journey rooted in a Waldorf-inspired, Islamic approach. Her work emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning—for both parent and child—and she encourages other homeschoolers to rediscover their own passions as a foundation for confident, joyful education.

With three grown sons and a 14-year-old daughter still learning at home, Hana brings years of experience and insight to her teaching. She is currently a teacher-in-training at the Waldorf School of Orange County and a skilled artist, knitter, and maker, sharing her talents to inspire and uplift fellow homeschooling families.

Based in California, Hana documents her homeschooling journey through her website https://pepperandpine.com and across social media platforms, where you can find her under @pepperandpine on YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, Threads, and TikTok.

Show Chapters

00:00 Intro 01:10 Meet Hana 04:49 Homeschooling in California: Know Your Options 08:09 Their Path Through the System 16:25 High School Planning & Early Graduation 21:00 Why We Started Homeschooling 24:05 Life Before Homeschooling 27:44 Teaching Through Your Temperament 34:40 Teaching Multiple Ages in Waldorf 46:06 Building a Waldorf Block 58:45 Teaching the Whole Child 01:03:45 History & the Age of Exploration 01:10:53 Greatest Challenge in Homeschooling 01:12:37 Biggest Surprise: Less Is More 01:17:52 Closing

Waldorf Schools Rotation of Blocks for K-8th

from Jamie York

from The Art of Homeschooling

Waldorf Teacher Training

The Beauty of Play's Botany Guide

Handwork from Hana

https://pepperandpine.com/handwork

Waldorfish Art Program

https://waldorfish.com

Charlotte Mason Narration

Drawing and Painting in Waldorf Schools

Transcript

Hana (00:00) But let me tell you, when it was right for them to be on their own, my heart was so at ease.

I just felt like it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for

I think my greatest, this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge.

We almost do botany every year, even though it's only called for once. it's in fifth grade curriculum, but we are either in the garden or we're planting something or we're cooking. That's, part of botany in some way.

Della (00:27) Yeah.

Hana (00:41) Or you have an older student who's in high school and botany is entirely different because it's more like biology at that point potentially. I feel like that's something that very easily could appeal to so many different ages.

it's that adolescent years that I'm like, wow, there is…

as much going on in those years and as much care in the curriculum for those students as there has been in the previous seven years.

Della (01:10) This week we're meeting Hana. Many of you probably already know Hana from her YouTube channel and her website, Pepper and Pine. Hana is deeply passionate about homeschooling and has been cultivating a rich, nurturing learning environment for her children since 2003. Drawing from her own strength and creativity, she's built a sustainable and inspiring homeschool journey rooted

in Waldorf-inspired Islamic approach. Her work emphasizes the importance of lifelong learning for both parent and child, and she encourages other homeschoolers to rediscover their own passions as a foundation for confident, joyful education. With three grown sons and a 14-year-old daughter still learning at home, Hana brings years of experience and insight to her teaching.

She is currently in a teacher training program at the Waldorf School of Orange County and a skilled artist, knitter, and maker sharing her talents to inspire and uplift her fellow homeschool families. Based in California, Henna documents her homeschooling journey through her website, Pepper and Pine, and across social media platforms where you can find her under Pepper and Pine on YouTube, Instagram,

Facebook, Threads, and TikTok.

Della (02:40) This is a homeschool journey.

Della (03:42) Hi Hana welcome. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Hana (03:47) Hi Della, thank you for having me. I'm very excited about this.

Della (03:50) I am too. I realize we've talked about a lot of different things over the years, but I don't know any of the answers to the questions that I'm asking you today.

Hana (04:02) Very exciting. And yes, we have talked so much over the years. what's really fabulous about that is that having this opportunity to connect with you and other like-minded individuals is such a gift now that I know I didn't have when I first started out. So I'm especially loving this. And I really, it's close to my heart to do this and give back to others.

Della (04:26) I agree. I think each person experience and differences really provides a wealth of information to other people. Well, let's start out with what state you're in and the requirements for homeschooling in your state.

Hana (04:45) Yeah, it's a good question. And it's quite varied state to state. I'm in California, and I've only homeschooled in California. we have two types of schooling available, and that is the public school route or the private school route.

within the public school and the private school route, there are on-site and off-site choices.

you have offsite options. an offsite option for a private school might be say, a private tutor, like maybe you are a professional athlete or an actor or a musician, then you might choose that option if you're still in school and you need to.

complete your courses, then you might have a tutor or some kind of private school that offers off-site instruction. And then within that off-site instruction, you might find schools that say, hey, listen, we know that you want to do your own thing, so we will file the paperwork for you. Just give us a small fee, maybe $1 to $300 a year, and we'll file all the paperwork for you. And then you can just kind of go do your own thing.

And then even within that, you might find schools that are specifically catering to the homeschool family. And they might say, well, listen, give us a few hundred dollars and you can have access to like, say, our library or we'll organize field trips. And so that's another option within the private school option. You're still paying for this. But you can also say, you know what, I don't really need those kinds of services and I feel pretty confident in finding my own paperwork.

So you can just go directly to the website And then you can file your own paperwork and you can become a school of one family with.

as little as one teacher and one student, or you can have more students. And now the laws are changing all the time. So you have to make sure that you check on the updated laws. But I remember a time when I learned about this, where you could have a home school with more than five students, for instance. Let's just say you have more than five children. And then those schools end up becoming part of public record. So just letting you know that you might get a call one day for

someone saying, hey, can I join your school? And it's really just a home school. So that's all part of the private school route. What's really great about California is that you have a lot of public school option choices for homeschooling as well. So this would be the offsite choices through the public school system. And in that, you might have a charter school, you might have your county school, you might have your district school. So each of those options are going to be free.

They're going to provide books and services. And in some cases, like the charter school we were a part of, they'll actually provide funding.

These different institutions will offer a variety of things, but it's all free. And in some cases, you might even be provided your own materials or access to those libraries or access to field trips or access literally to funding, not cash, but funding that you can use in order to buy curriculum or attend classes.

So the lot of options within California, you just have to know what's going to be best for you because each one has its benefits and its challenges.

Della (08:04) which one did you choose?

Hana (08:07) We chose a variety of them. We started out with, I think, our district when we first started homeschooling. I didn't know very much, and I did something similar to what my mom did. I thought I went to my district and said, we want to homeschool. they said, no problem. We were enrolled in that school. And we met with a teacher, and she gave us a big stack of books that were a lot of teacher-made. This is in kindergarten, so for my five-year-old.

big stack of teacher manuals and some workbooks and we even had access to manipulatives and everything. we were required to do the work that other five year olds would be doing in our district. I realized I really wanted to do my own thing, my own Waldorf thing, and this wasn't working out and I would do.

like one entire week dedicated to all of the work that they would give us. And I'd get those worksheets done and then I'd spend the other three weeks doing our Waldorf inspired work. And it was not working out because at least in kindergarten, those two methods are so different. We just were not vibing. So then the following year decided to go to the county and this was what my mom had done so that I was a little more familiar with this. So within the county, this will service all the students within that county, not just your local district.

Now this system was a lot more established. It had been there for many years. Had a lot of services, a lot of familiarity with the homeschool families and the homeschool mentality. So it was a little bit more, I want to say a little more flexible in some ways, but still this is a public school. You have teachers, you have requirements, you have textbooks, and they also wanted to see a lot more lesson planning than I was prepared to do. So this was, I believe, either half of grade

kindergarten or this was grade one. I believe we left midway grade one. I just can't remember if we did a full year with the district or a full year with the county. It also didn't work out because those two pedagogies, know, local public school and Waldorf, they just didn't mix that well at that age. They do a little bit better later on. I had been going to homeschool conferences at this point, still when they were in person.

local homeschool groups were really active at the time. This is the early 2000s. Then I paid a private school to homeschool. So I paid a private school about $150. They filed all of my paperwork and they kind of just left me alone. I was like, this is perfect. And I was able to do exactly what I wanted, but there's no support. And I'm paying for everything out of pocket. And as you know, Waldorf materials are very expensive.

And this is the year that I had a single paintbrush that we all shared because that single paintbrush cost $14. It's just too much. So then we were with this. Yeah, we were with this school for a little bit and either around this time or at another time, because we've done this option much later as well. I thought, you know, I don't really need this private school to file my own paperwork. I'm actually going to try it on my own. And we have the California

Della (10:57) That's a lot.

Hana (11:17) homeschool network here, which is very supportive of independent homeschoolers and they have very clear directions on their website on how to file your own paperwork directly with the State Department of Education. So I tried it out and indeed it was so easy and I think the most exciting part that most people who do their own

PSA or they're know filed directly with the state is to choose a name for their school, we got to choose our own name for our school, which was fabulous. And then you're just accountable to the state. And I forgot to mention that when we were accountable to our private school, we were required to do either a grade or narrative report card and provide attendance. And those two things are also very important if you're doing

the public school route, which our teachers would take care of. But it's really important in all of this that you are following the laws because truancy a very serious issue and you don't want your children to be truant. So in all of this, make sure that you check the laws for your state, even your county, if they happen to be different, make sure that you are enrolled properly. Whatever your state says is proper enrollment. And make sure that for us, we had to just provide

attendance and a report card, which I did a narrative report card in those early years, which I really wish I had continued because it was far more expansive than just saying you get an A. And honestly, I would have given my children A's in all of their work because they're showing up, they're completing work, that's an A for me. But doing a narrative report card means I'm sharing exactly what my children learned that year, maybe what their challenges were.

what books we covered, what games we played, what field trips we partook in. All of those things is for me far better and I really, really wish that I'd continue that but I didn't. at this point I'm probably homeschooling two children and my oldest is maybe third or fourth grade and a friend of mine says, hey I'm joining this charter school and I want to

choose some Waldorf materials? Can you help me choose some Waldorf materials? Here are the vendors. Here's how much money I have." I said, sure. So I went to those vendors, looked at her budget, and I just started filling the cart with all of these things. And I thought, wait a minute, why don't I do this? Like, this sounds amazing. So then we went through the charter school system. We were given a certain amount of funding. We were able to buy all of the materials that we needed and

that's when our homeschool took the biggest shift in how we were able to use our materials and enjoy our time differently. It did take some time to get used to the charter school because you still have requirements, you still have attendance, and you still meet with your teacher once a month. that took a little while to get used to because we shifted thinking like, just need to provide enough to show this teacher that we've done work. And that shifted my…

aims and goals of homeschooling and I really did not like the way that felt. it's paramount to teaching to the test. I was like I don't like to just do work to show you we've done work. So I said you know that that's her job. She knows the state standards. She will take our work and fit it into the state standards. That's her skill set.

Della (14:29) Mm.

Hana (14:44) So I will utilize my time to do exactly what we want to do as far as homeschooling because it is learning all the time and focus on our Waldorf approach. And she very skillfully took our work and matched the state standards. And that's another thing. When you are homeschooling in, I believe, first grade to eighth grade or kindergarten to eighth grade, any of the work you do has to match

any of the standards between first and eighth grade or kindergarten eighth grade. I can't quite remember if kindergarten is included, which means that you could have a fifth grader doing first grade work and eighth grade work that same year and that counts as long as it meets one of those standards. Once you hit ninth grade, then it's a drastic shift and then that work has to meet

the standards, I believe, either in the grade level that you're in or between ninth and 12th grade. And of course, the credits and everything become very serious, making sure that you get enough time. And this is the most important thing is that your work represents high school rigor, not just that you did algebra, but that you did high school algebra because eighth grade and seventh grade algebra can look really different, especially from the Waldorf approach. So we've done a little bit of all of it. There are pros and cons to all of it.

But I do really appreciate the charter school system for its support, primarily financially.

Della (16:12) did those requirements that you had in high school play a role in the choice that you had to graduate some of your children early and move to community college?

Hana (16:25) Yeah, that's a really great question. I imagine that this will be different state to state. But what is the same, not just in the US, but probably wherever you're homeschooling, is that it's really important that by ninth grade or really before ninth grade, in my opinion, if you want your children at all to go to university or college, that you really have an eight year plan for them by the time they enter ninth grade. Now,

I feel like before ninth grade, we're really just building certain skills and really enjoying learning and having a love of learning and really exploring having just a magical time with education. For me, the shift was really puberty in ninth grade and ninth, 10th grade around that time. Because your grades in ninth grade and more specifically your GPA starting in 10th grade is going to affect your

your possibility of getting into university potentially. It's really important that we understand that. So now while we had great flexibility and freedom up until eighth grade, since we knew that our children were almost definitely going to go to university, our high school approach was very different. University or college, it kind of depends, but we were looking at a four year degree rather than a two year associate degree. Now this is really

dependent on your child and your family and what your goals are. And for us, university was not an option unless there was a child of mine who was like, really want to do something different. they were really under our mentorship quite a bit at that point. We really guided them through those years. And there are good things and bad things about guiding with this level of guidance.

the choices we made to exit high school early.

and have them enrolled in community college. it's important to know that your options for exiting high school early, at least in California, I don't know how it is in other states, it's not graduating high school. There are different tests that you can take, GED, and get other credits, but it's not graduating high school, which means that if you are enrolled in a charter school,

or in a public school and you want to exit high school early, you're likely not going to get the support from the school for you to do that because to the best of my knowledge and certainly things can change, it does look like a dropout rather than a graduation and that does not look good on the statistics for that school. Now I knew that we aren't just going to drop out of high school and not complete university. So my children don't have

the typical high school diploma. Now they have a certificate of completion of exiting being able to exit high school. They do not have a high school diploma, but they have their AA degree. They have their bachelor's degree. They have their master's degree. And that's okay because you're looking at the highest level of education. So we were completely okay with it. But if you decide to do anything else where really your highest form of education is going to be high school, you want to make sure that you're completing those credits.

You want to make sure that you can graduate your student. if even if you still decide to exit them early, which you can take the exit exam, but not actually submit it so that you can still graduate. And also you have to like make sure that you understand these rules really well and understand that this is 2026 and we are now going to be doing this with one more child in the upcoming year and the rules have changed. you please, please, please make sure that you're up to date on those rules.

the high school slash college experience, I think, is really where, in my opinion, students need as much care and mentorship and attention from parents, counselors, school counselors as much as possible because things are changing, because children might just not know, like, yeah, I love biology, but actually the career I want is entirely different. They may need that help and attention. And then,

every family or every classroom is going to have that one student that knows exactly what they want to do. They know exactly where they want to go. They know the career that they want to have. That's fabulous. They barely need any guardrails. But I think for most students, there's a little bit of confusion. As I think by ninth or 10th grade, you kind of have to have this figured out. That can be so challenging.

Della (21:00) Yeah, yeah,

So how did you find yourself homeschooling? What did that path look like for you?

Hana (21:08) My family actually had homeschooled my mom had homeschooled my younger two siblings and then my older sister Who's about maybe ten years older than I am had homeschooled some of her children So I was familiar with this as an option we weren't sure what we wanted to do when my first child was young we were getting closer to that time where we had to make a decision and

we sort of just left those options kind of open until the very last second where we're like, well, like, should we homeschool? Yeah, I guess we'll homeschool. But it wasn't until probably 10 or 15 years after I had started homeschooling that I realized that one of the major reasons why I homeschooled, I wasn't even aware of consciously at the time. And I'll tell you that. But first, I'll tell you the two.

logical reasons why we homeschooled. One was for religious reasons. We really wanted to have a more religious approach to our education, but I didn't want to send them to a religious school. And the other thing is that I definitely wanted a Waldorf approach to our education, which had been to a Waldorf school when I was younger, and my siblings, my older siblings, had been to a Waldorf school much longer than I had. But once I moved back to the States from France, I was in second grade.

and there wasn't a local Waldorf school, so we went to public school and I just had fallen out of my memory. I just hadn't thought about it until a chance encounter with someone when my child was four years old and had mentioned something about her child going to a Waldorf school. I'm like, you know, I know I had been to one and just that chance encounter and visiting that local school just sort of revived this renewed interest in Waldorf education. So my child was…

about four and a half nearing five years old. And I thought, well, I want a Waldorf education, but I don't want to send him to a Waldorf school.

I

So I thought, well, let me do this at home. And of course there was a whole trial and getting to that point where I felt like I had what I wanted, what I envisioned for my children. But what I realized about 10 or 15 years later was that the truth was I didn't want to be separated from my child. And I couldn't fathom the idea of this

this child who had only just turned five, literally probably a week before school started, to be away from me for four, six, eight hours a day, my heart just was not going to be able to handle it.

But let me tell you, when it was right for them to just be on their own, my heart was so at ease.

I just felt it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for that.

Della (23:53) I was telling Tomika in my last episode that I wanted to be the one that got to teach my child. So I shared that feeling. Also, they were so young.

Five is so young Yeah, they're babies.

Hana (24:11) their babies.

Della (24:14) Tell me what you did before children and tell me how that has influenced your homeschooling.

Hana (24:22) This is interesting. feel like I found my passion years after university, where I want to dedicate my time towards, which is not so different in a way. But I went to university to study chemistry and I studied chemistry because I thought I would be a high school chemistry teacher. It turns out I'm a very poor chemist, very terrible chemist. I actually like biology a lot better.

But I also, there's so much about biology the way that it was taught in school that I just didn't align with us from a religious perspective. the advice was like, why don't you try chemistry? And also for my local university, biology was a really impacted major for pre-med. actually I was probably a poor biologist too, because whenever we had to do a dissection, I'd have my lab partner do it.

And whenever we had anything that was the least bit explosive in chemistry, I would probably have my lab partner do it or I would probably close my eyes and turn away or I would just be in such anxiety. It turned out I really liked physics, but not the first quarter. I pretty much failed out of that physics class. And my counselor said, you know, if you can't do physics, you can't do chemistry.

Luckily, my do-over for physics, had the most brilliant professor ever, and I fell in love with physics, but that was not going to be my degree. But I think physics feels a little bit safer for me than chemistry

Della (25:52) That's funny.

That came up in our chemistry conversation where you were talking about, apparently your daughter also has a little bit of reservation with explosions and setting things on fire. And if you don't know in Waldorf pedagogy, typically the way it approaches

Hana (26:06) Yes!

Della (26:12) Chemistry, and I think it's because it's in the middle school years and they're looking for that ooh and They do a lot of combustion.

Did any accidents happen in your chemistry classes?

Hana (26:27) No, I was terrified of any accidents happening because the first thing you do is you learn all the safety protocols. And as you know, there's that shower inside a chemistry lab in case you get any chemicals on you, you have to go and get it off right away. One thing that was helpful in that was knowing that water is great at solving a lot of immediate problem, getting it diluted, getting it washed off. That was a bit of a comfort, but

No, nothing ever bad happened.

Della (26:56) We had a guy set himself on fire in our lab, one of my labs. It turned out not being bad. Like you said, they do go over all the safety protocols before you even start all the labs. So we all knew them. And someone quickly shuffled him over to the shower and turned the shower on and it went out. But yeah, he…

Hana (27:03) Wait, how- how- my gosh.

Della (27:24) I think that was our most exciting lab experience. Yeah, it was miserable. I can see why you would be afraid of explosions and combustion and so forth in chemistry.

Hana (27:28) That's memorable. Yeah, I know.

That's it.

Yeah.

my temperament and my personality, let's avoid the conflict. Let's just stay very far away from it.

So if my child is resisting reading, let's just give it a few months. Let's give it a few days. Let's give it a year. Let's give it time until that student is ready and the conflict diminishes.

most of the time this is okay and the times that it's not okay we should have had early intervention. So let me give you two really quick examples. My child is writing their letters incorrectly. This is very typical for a new student. Five, six, seven, eight. They're going to maybe write their sevens backwards or

their e's backwards or maybe upside down and you're like, that's okay, normal. they're doing such great progress. I'm not going to point that out. They will just grow out of it and most students do grow out of it. For the students who don't grow out of it, you've established a very poor habit and now to try to undo that is going to be a lot more challenging than had you had that early intervention. How are you going to know whether you needed early intervention or not?

Certainly more skilled teachers are going to know I gave in to my temperament, my personality, because most things worked out in the end. So I missed a lot of teaching opportunities. I missed a lot of problems that should have been resolved earlier because I assumed that things would work out.

Della (29:07) knowing what we know about the science of reading, I do feel like most children do need explicit systematic teaching of phonics to be good readers. And I feel like if you are having any particular issues that you are noticing, having an assessment as a homeschooler is a really positive thing. It's not like…

in public education where sometimes children get labeled and that label follows them from one year to the next and then there are these prejudisms that happen associated with that label. In homeschool, It just gives you the information that you need in order to scaffold and support your child. You don't even have to share that assessment with anybody else, but if you know that there are issues with X, Y, or Z,

then you have the ability to scaffold them in the best way possible for their education.

Hana (30:07) Yeah, that's really good advice. I think state by state, most states will offer those kinds of assessments through the public school. And what I learned most recently, I believe with California is that even if you're homeschooling, you still have access to those services through the public school system. And I think now they even do early intervention for hearing. So if you suspect that there could be a hearing issue,

You can have that assessed really early. do need that assessed early because that will affect language development and other things later on. sometimes we just don't even know where to begin with that. your local pediatrician is a great place to start. Also your local optometrist and even your local dentist.

Della (30:42) Mm-hmm.

Hana (30:53) one of my children had a vision issue, but not a sight issue. So going in to get his sight checked came back perfect, like 2020 or better, but his vision had an issue. And I would not have known about all of these nuanced issues.

had I not been going to homeschool conferences at the time. now we have different ways of getting our information.

Here's the other thing is that it's constantly a moving target because our children are growing in and out of issues. Some things do remain with them, but some things are, you know, they last a period of time.

Della (31:29) And then they grow out of them. we've had that too.

Della (31:35) Hi friends, it's Stella from the Beauty of Play again. The Beauty of Play membership subscription is now open for enrollment. I've been homeschooling for over 15 years and my oldest is in his third year of college. In this subscription, I've essentially downloaded my brain from all those years of homeschooling and teaching math. In the past, with coaching, I could only help one person at a time.

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Della (34:48) this one is a common one. And I'm going to just ask you because I know it gets asked a lot, like every workshop that we do together, this question gets asked. But if you were choosing to homeschool in a Waldorf fashion, how do you go about teaching multiple ages? Because obviously, if you are following what Waldorf schools are doing in what should be taught when

then you would be teaching two to three main lessons. So tell me how you handle multiple ages in a Waldorf style homeschooling.

Hana (35:24) It's such a good question. And I think my answer might still be the same, but I am in my Waldorf teacher training, I'm learning more about child development and more about why these lessons are given at each stage, but at the same time, I'm also learning more about what the, I'm going to say this in my,

my interpretation of it. But what the ideal school might have looked like, that was never what the Waldorf School was. Okay. And I'm going to give you two examples of this so that we can understand in a greater picture, what is really important our kids, what is required by our peers, our community and our society and what our children really need in order just to live life.

my oldest son was a late reader, but I also want

to explain what that looks like exactly because reading of course is something we panic about early on. Reading for him did not become fluent until the summer before he started fifth grade and when he entered fifth grade and became a fluent reader he was reading at a fifth grade level. So this is really important to understand that he didn't become a reader and read at a first grade level or kindergarten or you know second grade he read at his level.

Now, could he decode some words before that? He certainly could. And decoding words and reading fluently, I think there's a difference between the two that we should recognize so that we can also understand those milestones that our students are going through so that we're also not panicked. There's some stuff going on. But he didn't read fluently until he had turned 11.

Rudolf Steiner also didn't read until around that age. I want to say 10 to 12. And he said something that I think is so profound that we need to remember when we are thinking about our children being spiritual beings, not just this physical entity that

we're kind of reduced to thinking our problems are all just physical if they're medical, for instance, that we're kind of forgetting that we're emotional and we're spiritual. he said it would be of no consequence. And it could actually be even better for the spirit of the child, spirituality or for his spiritual development if the child didn't read until 10, 11, 12 years old. So it was of no detriment to him. he's even saying

It would be of no detriment to anybody if they learn to read late. Now, I also want to just clarify spiritualism, spiritual being separate from religious or religious upbringing, because we can all agree that there is something that makes us alive that is unlike anything else.

Well, that was one thing. I said, well, then why aren't we doing that in school? Why aren't we spending our time between, you know, let's say school age, seven and 10 years old, doing something that's better or more meaningful for the child? And what would that look like? What did he say that would look like?

well, because society is expecting of us and we can stray a little bit, because Waldorf schools certainly do that, but we can't just stray that much. Maybe it's better for them in the long run that they are doing things with their hands, for instance, because we're certainly not doing enough things with our hands and enough things with our bodies. Our children need to be moving more and climbing trees and jumping from rock to rock and exploring the woods and.

and even learning skills with their hands. I'm a big proponent of learning skills with their hands.

The other thing was that Steiner said in one of his lectures that if he could, he would have a shoemaker on staff at all of the schools so that students could literally see how shoes are made. So I'm like, this is very interesting and curious because students at a Waldorf school learn how to do many things from

weaving to knitting to sewing to wood carving to stone carving to coppersmithing like all of these things he wants a shoe cobbler you know a shoemaker on staff as well i think we should also also have other professions as well like we really need to see where these materials are these products are

where they're originally coming from, we're disconnected from that in a big way. So these two things, why I'm mentioning them, is that when you then look back at the Waldorf curriculum and you look at the different main lesson blocks and then you think about your children and the developmental ages, what is it that we're really trying to do at each of these different grades? Like what is really the thing that we need to distill out of that entire year?

that is so particular for that age or that grade that is this window of opportunity for that time period that you're just not going to get as much later on. First of all, you yourself have to decide what your understanding is of child development.

So my understanding of child development is heavily influenced on the seven year cycles, which are observable, not just through Steiner's lens, but they're just observable. Also, understand it from not just a physical development, but from a spiritual development, emotional development. We have to understand like this whole child, all of the parts of this child that make up this being.

the human being really in essence. Once you have an understanding that aligns with you, your ideas, etc., then you can start to decide what kinds of lessons you want to combine or which ones you definitely want to keep for that grade level or for that age level.

the way that I approached it was that I always gave my seven-year-old, sometimes he or she would be almost eight years old, that inaugural lesson, that main lesson block in the letters of the alphabet. Quality of numbers should have come too but it's basically the letters of the alphabet. This was

Welcome to school. You are an official student. Certainly you've done a lot of learning before this point, but you get your first main lesson, your first main lesson book, your first set of crayons. It was just ceremonial for me. also I've combined grade levels into units

rather than a main lesson block approach so that it can kind of fit with multiple ages, multiple students. In the end, I really do love either a main lesson block approach that is going to bring in other materials for those other students or a unit study approach where it's that's just built into the unit study that you're going to be doing all these different kinds of activities and that naturally fits with multiple ages and multiple students. in

all of these situations, always chose the one student that this main lesson block was really intended And I taught to that student primarily, but brought in other materials so that the rest of my students were engaged in some way.

Della (42:17) Yeah,

I did a similar thing with that and I've coached other people on doing similar things where you look at the family as a whole looking at the value of the family and what blocks are most important to that family. we were definitely not going to skip botany for anybody and we're not going to skip the animal block.

That was a big one for us. And then quality of numbers you're looking at your family at a whole, where everybody is, what blocks are most important that you want to make sure that you're hitting that block within a certain timeframe for that child. Maybe it's not

Botany right on fifth grade. Maybe you do botany on fourth grade or maybe you do it in sixth grade, but you're hitting botany around the child development time for that child. Definitely I wouldn't advocate for doing too many main lesson blocks at the same time. It's so much work. It's just too much work to do for multiple children.

Hana (43:22) when you mentioned botany is a main lesson block that you would never skip, same with us. We almost do botany every year, even though it's only called for once. we are either in the garden or we're planting something or we're cooking. That's, part of botany in some way.

Della (43:27) Yeah.

Hana (43:40) Or you have an older student who's in high school and botany is entirely different because it's more like biology I feel like that's something that very easily could appeal to so many different ages. And then I'll tell you and I know you know this too because you've experienced it. I could be doing something that you might think, that's that's baby. That's like really young. That's juvenile. And the older kids love it.

And so if we're not saying, that's only for a first grader, but we're doing this all together, there's no trepidation about doing something we're just planting a seed. That's all we're doing. And you can plant a seed at any age. And then we circled through to daily work. And you're right, I love the Charlotte Mason approach so much.

Della (44:14) Right.

Hana (44:21) In a way, I want to say it's easy to understand and implement, but that's probably simplifying it too much. the idea of these short lessons, brilliant, varied lessons, having such a variety of lessons, so smart. I misunderstood when I was first homeschooling, because I was like, I love Charlotte Mason. I love Waldorf.

We're supposed to do a variety of lessons every day. How am I doing so many? I was like exhausting myself.

If you're coming in as a tutor and you're going to do multiple main lesson blocks a day with someone, because I did talk to a Waldorf teacher was like, oh, it's okay. 10 to 12, you do the first student. 12 to two, you do the next.

Okay, you are coming in as a teacher to do this with this family. That is not possible when you have other children. Who's going to watch the other children during that two hour block? always something comes up it was, in my opinion, lofty to think that that was going to be a possibility. In practicality, it's not. And we don't want to beat ourselves up for it. So the most I was ever able to do with my four children.

which because of their four year age difference, I was only ever homeschooling probably only three at a time since my children, exited high school early and only ever did two main lesson blocks that one year. So every day two main lesson blocks, insane work. Do not recommend it.

Della (45:38) Yeah,

yeah, I really do think doing more than one main lesson block is not practical for a homeschooling family with multiple children.

Let's talk a little bit about building a Waldorf block, because you and I both do this similarly. What resources do you pull from? What are you thinking about as you build the block? What kind of things do you want to have in it?

just basically how do you approach building a Waldorf block?

Hana (46:14) probably one of my favorite things to do is to build a block or a unit study

Well, I should say that I always want to have something hands-on in our unit. And I think you do too. it's almost always enjoyable as some families, some parents really don't like it. And now that I've almost done homeschooling my four children, there are certainly some children that really gravitate towards it more than others.

let's say you're homeschooling your first child and you see all these really beautiful projects that people are doing and it's just not working for you. It might not be you, might not be your preparation. It just might be your child who's just really not interested in type of learning. So I love the hands-on projects. I love cooking, or I should say I love eating, so I love getting into the kitchen. There was a year that I…

made it a priority to do all kinds of field trips. I have to say that we did a lot more field trips when my children were younger. It got a lot more challenging when my children were older or in community college or had sort of aged out of, you know, going to like children's museums or field trips and things like that.

Then there are the books, and this is where the Charlotte Mason comes in. Like, I love adding the books. And I have to say that now that my homeschool journey has come close to an end, I realized that in my enthusiasm for building these main lesson blocks in unit studies, I overdid it. In many ways, I overdid it. And so I want to caution what overdoing it might look like. I want to warn what that might mean for you as a teacher parent.

and what it might do for your children because you might think enthusiasm is great, passion is great in the homeschool world and maybe most of us need a little bit more of it. But for those of us who are coming with our whole body and souls, we can overdo it. This is what it looked like. let's just take botany for instance or astronomy or ancient Egypt. those areas of study that are going to have a lot of resources.

I would either go to the library or go to Rainbow Resources, one of my favorite websites. They have just about every single book, project, workbook, curriculum imaginable for the homeschooler I would type astronomy and I would go through 15 pages of products and it would be activities and kits and hand projects and…

a space kit that included space ice cream and the books and I would just add to cart, add to cart, all of these things I'd be so excited about. And then I would receive those materials. And then there was like, wait a minute, I have 10 books on astronomy. It out that six of them are almost the same. And I have scheduled all of them into my curriculum planning.

and I have three projects and actually they're all solar system projects. we don't need to do three solar systems. So my problem, which I don't think it's a common problem. I think maybe most of us are looking for ideas. Okay.

Della (49:14) You know, it's a common problem for me. I pack our blocks and the consequences of that. I want to read all the books. I want to do all the projects. The consequences of that is you burn out your child, A typical Waldorf block is supposed to be three, four weeks max, or you can split them up if it's like botany where you need a spring and a fall.

Hana (49:16) Bye.

Della (49:41) Our astronomy lasted six weeks. It was a beautiful block, but at the end of it, we're all exhausted. can't wait to be done with it. something that took a long time for me to learn, there's a great book about this, Making Thinking Visible, is that there are different types of learning and thinking that we need to

help our children in doing. a huge portion of that is not just consumption, but analysis and digestion and then use of that material in some way. And that can look a lots of different ways. It can look like hexagonal thinking for analysis. can look like doing a project that has historical or factual

information within that project. It can look like illustration, narration, but in the beginning when I was homeschooling, I was cramming all of this stuff and wondering why we weren't doing it or having the retention not be there. They couldn't remember what we went over or the writing was poor. Why aren't you writing better? And it's because I was demanding

much at one time and I had to make room and I eventually learned, especially for writing projects, that I needed not to assign reading on that day if we were going to be writing because they needed to spend that time writing, depending on the quality of the writing that I was

wanting or expecting, also is a whole different learning experience. Because you can't edit and develop every piece of writing, you have to pick and choose. And so you have to be okay with some of the main lesson entries not being perfect. It took me a long time to figure that one out.

Hana (51:53) forgot you and I are so similar in this I'd be curious is this is this a very niche issue to have or are other others do they get excited too I love the books I love the books so much and you'll notice that in the Waldorf approach we're not we're not behind a book

reading, right? That's like this barrier between you and the student. The student's like, well, look, if all you need to do is read a book, what do I need you for? we're supposed to be absorbing the information and being able to present it. But on many occasions, would, the vast majority of occasions, I wasn't ready to just do a lesson. So let me use this living book, Charlotte Mason living books. They're books that are usually from a single author, passionate. just

They're not a textbook, you can just really sense the enthusiasm from the author and the material itself. this is perfect. We would read our stack of books that I would either buy or get from the library. The problem with that, and you mentioned so many issues that come up with the burnout of the teacher, the burnout of the students, the potential for less quality work because you're going through things so quickly.

The other thing that I noticed and at first I'm like, oh, it's not such a bad idea. Actually, this is kind of a good idea. I've got, so many books on the solar system. we read one of them. similar to the first. There's like a couple of things that are different, but there's a lot of things that are the same. So then I'm well, the redundancy is not bad. that repetition is probably good for them. And I'm like, oh, well, you know, and I can actually ask this question as as I'm reading it aloud. I know we've already done this. Why don't I re

phrase this sentence into a question since you know it's something we already did. So those were little tricks that I used in doing this we do have the live education Waldorf curriculum and I have it from kindergarten through eighth grade. Now we haven't used all the main lesson blocks for sure. I'm aware of where the content is supposed to be.

I don't always follow it. A lot of times I'm just doing my own things. A lot of times I'm like following to the letter. And what I realized was that when I was following the main lesson blocks with a limited amount of additional resources and curated projects, everything went so much better. We did not get exhausted, as you said, from the main lesson block.

we stop when we still felt good about the content and not like, thank gosh, like we are finally done with this. The work that we did was more meaningful and more intentional. The writing and the illustrations, which we should not forego, as you said, we spent more time on it, whether the quality was better or not.

I can't really say, but we we made space for that, which is so important. We're not just looking at consumption, as you said, we're also looking at what did we learn from this or what did we understand from this? that's another thing that I really love the Charlotte Mason approach to narration was that I wasn't really testing my children. don't think I ever really tested them. Sure, tests came up, but not from me.

And if there were, was through conversation. was an organic assessment, Or it was through their written work, realizing, taught you capitalization. How is it that you were in sixth grade and you haven't capitalized the first letter of the sentence? don't understand. clearly there is a breakdown in my teaching and your application of that content. And I was

flabbergasted, so confused. So then it was like, okay, well, we need to go over this again, because in let's just take grammar, for instance, they could get all of that content correct over and over and over again for that entire main lesson block or that entire daily work exercise. then we transfer it to here's where you actually apply this in your narration. Your paragraphs are a mess. You don't have correct punctuation.

some words maybe are spelled incorrectly. there were those that breakdown of like teaching versus application. when I stuck more closely to the curriculum or when I edited my choices, when I was more intentional about our projects, our main lessons and our unit studies were more successful. My children were more engaged. We didn't have as much burnout. We ended on a high note.

endings were hard for me. I'm really great at a ceremonial beginning, but I'm pretty terrible at a proper ending. was usually our endings are because like we fizzle out or we just kind of have this mediocre ending before we move on. This is really important in Waldorf education. It's probably important just in life to have a proper beginning and a proper ending and that if you run into issues, especially when the children are young and especially if it's regarding skills,

and you're realizing that there is a frustration that is turning into either a meltdown, a tantrum, a crying, whatever it is that you realize like emotionally this child is not understanding this, you end that lesson right away. Okay, it's time to close, let's do our closing verse or let's, you know, it's time for lunch or it's time for a break or we're gonna go out, whatever it is, however you close it, you close it hopefully before you hit that point where there's a meltdown.

And then you can literally resume that class 15 minutes later or two hours or the next day. But we don't do that to our children. that was something that I learned much later on in our homeschooling journey from a seasoned Waldorf teacher who reminded me of the importance of closings and endings. also, you don't have to do a two-hour main lesson block. You're homeschooling. Do 20 minutes. And if there's a problem,

close your lesson and start again, it's okay.

Della (57:41) that's interesting. I did not know about that with closings. That's really useful information. And I think having known that now I would have done things a lot differently. That's that's really interesting, Hana. That's useful

information.

Hana (57:59) as I'm in my teacher training, as I'm working more towards my own harmony of my temperament, I'm realizing, there's actually a lot of wisdom in doing this. this is my, these are my goals and aims now.

that if I were in a teaching position, I would now be also mindful of those as a classroom or in a homeschool setting.

Della (58:24) Right. The wonderful thing that we have available to us, and there are some public school system teachers that do this really well. How they do it with so many students is beyond me, but as the parent, you have the ability to see the entire child. And what I love about Waldorf Pedagogy is that it cultivates an education based on the

entire child. I remember doing a block on Africa. We did our history different from Waldorf schools timeline We did it in chronological order and when we hit the 1500s, 1600s and where the

Transatlantic slave trade was occurring. That's a heavy block. And so we sandwiched it between starting with the culture, which I think is really important. I have learned this from my black and brown friends and I am so grateful for it because when you're just focusing in on the negative, it still gives that picture of suppression. But celebrating

the culture and the joy and the achievement gives a fuller picture. So we started out with that. It was a great block. I found this artist who had done this piece that had fabrics from different tribes within Africa. it was, each fabric was cut into

the country and it made up the whole Afros absolutely beautiful. And I thought I want to do my block based on that fabric being the theme throughout the study of Africa. So I took that piece and I

did a bunch of research and I found some books. It was hard in the beginning, but I did eventually find some books. we went through a variety of tribes. You can't do them all. There's just so many. It's like here in the United States, there's over 500 indigenous peoples. You can't do them all. But we picked a few that hit all the areas of the continent.

And then we made an attempt to replicate some of the fabrics. It was such a fun block. Anyway, that was sandwiched in between the transatlantic slave trade. But when we finished that, it was such a heavy block and we really needed something more. And another Waldorf person, Robyn with Waldorfish who has the art

programs. She was like, do some art is like art therapy, do some art for finishing. And here's some suggested

samples that we can do and I picked that up and we did it because we needed it and that is the beauty of Waldorf is that it it does the whole child. You were talking earlier about balance and the need to be outdoors and making things with your hands. That approach is really what drew me to the pedagogy that and geometry.

You know how much I love math. When I saw Waldorf geometry, I was like, I am in love.

Hana (1:02:08) Yeah.

that block is tremendously beautiful. That's a really great approach for your Africa, did you call it an Africa main lasso block or was it like the time period more so?

Della (1:02:16) is.

what I was going for was that time period, but we focused in on the continent of Africa and the different people. We mixed in the geography, the tribes, the fabrics, all in that same block. But I did that block because we had hit the 15 and 16 hundreds in.

What else is happening? think also there, we might have done the Explore. The Age of Discovery is there too. And I think Waldorf does an Age of Discovery. But when I was reading, I think Charles Kovach, it was so Eurocentric. And there's such huge implications. We also shifted that block a lot as well to me.

more of our needs and to make it less Eurocentric. We just did Explorers of the World from different time periods and different places in the world. That was a really interesting block too. there were explorers that I did not know even before the 1400s like Ibn Battuta.

and there was a Chinese explorer. Yes, that's it. And that one in particular was really fascinating to me because their mindset was completely different in their travel and exploration. It was to meet and exchange ideas and gifts and

Hana (1:03:45) Yeah, Zheng He, right?

Della (1:04:06) bring those ideas and gifts back home. they loaded a huge fleet of ships with all kinds of gifts from Asia and set out to give these gifts and establish these relationships all around. I guess it would be Indonesia and the Pacific. How far did he go? Do you remember?

Hana (1:04:28) Yeah, I want to say that he also might have almost made it beyond, like definitely to India, if I remember correctly, and maybe even beyond. But you're right, understanding the cultural significance of that mission and then the cultural shift after that mission is really insightful and understanding probably more specifically Chinese culture, but maybe

Asian culture in general. I found that to be really insightful along with the rest of the explorers and why they did what they did. in some cases, which I find a little disappointing, was maybe economic gain or some form of exploitation, which is not great in and of itself. when you're doing the age of exploration, I'm assuming as

Della (1:05:10) Mm-hmm.

Hana (1:05:19) for us as well. was at least for this content, the content that could become like, I don't know that about like human nature. That sounds like not the best of human nature, but it's at around the time, like puberty, post puberty, like middle, like that age range where students from a developmental perspective are ready for somewhat of the nuances between the right and wrong.

They are very much justice oriented, very much like consequence, like if that wasn't right and those are the very much about that. But now we're bringing in like this nuance of the character We also did an explorer's unit not too long ago and there's also a sense of conquering to or at least there's that seems to come. I don't want to say hand in hand always, but there's a bit of conquering that comes with exploration.

And then we're looking at, okay, for me as an adult, looking at the character of this person and trying to understand how do I teach this objectively or do I not teach it objectively? Do I talk about that person's character or do I leave that up to the student to figure out? Those things I've had like,

different approaches and differences of opinions even with myself, But it, for me as an adult, it calls into question a lot about the character of these individuals and maybe it's not just exploration. It could also be invention. It could be politicians. It could be any kind of person. They come with such a varied character. How do we take what they did that was good and how do we leave behind the rest?

And do we even do that? That's the question. Do we even do that for these kinds of people where for you maybe that kind of character doesn't align with your values? Then do you completely remove that person and we just, there's an invention quote unquote, we found this land, but we don't talk about that person. How do we go about doing that? And those are just questions that I have now because now

when you get to teaching young adults or adolescents, you get to have these conversations and it's really exciting to have.

Della (1:07:35) It is really interesting to have and some of them like Columbus, I don't think you can get around not talking about him because

his voyages made such a huge impact even for historians there's something called the Colombian exchange because after that consistent contact there were worldwide implications

with US history. started out with Native American. We did similar with Africa. We studied the peoples, the culture, the art, the stories, and then we went into American history so that we have some context.

to what was going on, but we spent quite a bit of time on the Columbian Exchange during that because of the implications. The Smithsonian has an interesting book, Seeds of Change, and there's also an adult version, Seeds of Change, that talks about similar things, but in the Smithsonian book, they chose like a handful of items.

potatoes, corn, horses, disease, and a few others, and how that impacted the globe. It was a huge difference. Before that, Afro-Eurasia was kind of on its own, and the Americas were over here on their own. And there had been some little contact here and there. We have records of the Vikings.

from Vinland coming over. There were some Irish voyages that made it over, but we don't have any kind of constant contact. But when we have Columbus make his way over, there is a constant contact from them and it changes the globe for everybody on both sides. You know, it's interesting that you were talking about

child development during that time and how they have a strong sense of justice. They often see things as black and white and we're bringing in areas of grayness because they do that in art too. The art goes from from using charcoal. So you're black and white, the white of the paper and then the black of the charcoal and you're finding those shades of gray.

in the art as well during this development, It's really interesting how Waldorf Pedagogy does that.

Hana (1:10:22) Yeah, it's so beautiful to see it all connected and I know that you also just completed a perspective drawing main lesson block, I don't think too long ago. And again, that also is brought in at that middle school age when they are now able to do that kind of perspective

Della (1:10:36) Mm-hmm.

Hana (1:10:40) drawing and the concept of perspective is exactly right for that development.

Della (1:10:45) Right, right.

What has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?

Hana (1:10:53) this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge. we learn so much through this experience and our children are our teachers and we are tested in ways that we didn't think we'd be tested, emotionally, physically, mentally. we're

have this opportunity for growth. And that's not why we choose to be parents or to homeschool our children. It's just a natural consequence of taking on this task. But it's been a growth opportunity for me. It's been an opportunity for connection with my children. It's been an opportunity for reflection on who I am and my personality and my temperament and why I keep finding myself in these same

either predicaments or challenges or successes based on my own personality Contending with myself is like the biggest challenge. But it's also been like one of

biggest rewards and it's not that this would be the only way to do this. think anytime you come up against a conflict or a growth opportunity you are going to mature and change and grow from that. it's also been like such a beautiful opportunity to have a relationship with my children. Hopefully they feel the same way too. Hopefully, hopefully that it is

as beautiful of an experience and a childhood as I envisioned it to be, because certainly in reality there were trials, but I hope the essence that's left is something that's beautiful and memorable and full of connection.

Della (1:12:37) That really speaks to me. And I have the same experience with my kids when I look back over the years as a whole. I'm so grateful for the time that I got to spend with them. It was so meaningful.

last question for today, what was the biggest surprise for you in homeschooling?

Hana (1:13:04) think the biggest surprise is both how easy and how hard it is. You can make it as challenging as you want it to be. And of course there are challenging experiences as well. But we can also make it easier. And it's a surprise at how much

control I had over that experience, I could make things way more complicated than they needed to be. And the outcome would have been the same as if I had made it easier. in fact, in some cases, the outcome could have been better if I had just not done it in the more complicated way. And it's the old saying, know, less is more. But really internalizing that and being

so careful about what you are going to spend your time with will have that meaningful outcome when we are curating that with intention,

so we can do less and we can make it meaningful and we can we can lessen the anxiety and the complication around it.

we can make it simple and it can be just as powerful and maybe in some cases even more powerful than if we had made it more complicated.

Della (1:14:26) That's really interesting. when I coach homeschoolers about what they're doing, we start with the baseline. if we were just going to make sure three or four things happen, what does that look like?

And then we put those into place and we build on that until we hit our comfort level. Like this is ideally what I would like my homeschooling to look like. This is what we absolutely have to get done. And there are two things that happen when we do that. One, it shifts our perspective in that if we get the base done, we feel accomplished and

Two, it shows us the simplicity that can be needed for homeschooling. In addition to that, it sets us up for success in a number of different ways. One of them, which I'm going to talk with future guests about, is that at some point in homeschooling, especially if you have multiple age children, because you will be homeschooling from 12 to 20 years,

it's a long time that you're homeschooling. Something is going to happen in that journey. And you're going to need to pull back and slow down to a baseline. Almost certainly there's going to be a season of life, a pregnancy, a death in the family, some kind of illness, and you're going to need to pull back to that baseline and maybe even shift and outsource a lot of things.

so that you can either physically, emotionally, spiritually be in a different place. so having that baseline already well-defined, I am doing a reasonable job if I hit A, B, and C is really helpful. And I love…

how your experience and your expression has shown that even when we do that and maybe focus just on A, B, and C, that sometimes that can be as impactful as our full cake of homeschooling.

Hana (1:16:47) It really can be. I'll tell you, I'll end with this and tell you that I have a friend whose child reminds me over and again that she remembers with fondly the day that she came over and baked apple pie with me. And I

really struggled to remember in detail that day it's so hard for me and all of the things that we did. And she did that one time with us. And what this reminds me of is that

those things that our children like I only did water coloring one time with my children are they even gonna remember it was even impactful yeah it's probably gonna be more impactful than the weekly water coloring that we did because it becomes part of like the environment it's not a significant experience so yeah you can just do that one thing one time don't feel guilty about it it's probably gonna be the one thing that your child remembers or your friend's child remembers

For years to come, she's 27. She still reminds me to this day.

Della (1:17:55) Wow, that's great. I've really enjoyed our conversation today, Hana. Thank you so much for talking with me.

Hana (1:18:03) Thank you, Della. Thank you for having me and listening to me. I really enjoy our conversations as well. And I know that we're going to be picking this up again.

Della (1:18:12) Yes, okay, for our audience, please tell me all the different places that you can be found online.

Hana (1:18:19) Yeah, you can find me at Pepper and Pine on my website at pepperandpine.com. And you can also find me on the social media platforms of YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok.

Della (1:18:33) Excellent. Thank you again for joining me.

Hana (1:18:36) Thank you, Della, for me.

Della (1:18:38) Hi, friend, thanks so much for listening to the end. I hope it was useful to you. I think this is the spot that I'm supposed to ask for the five-star review or some such for CEO optimization. I don't know anything about that.

But I am interested in the podcast making its way to the people that need it most. If you'll forward it to a homeschooling friend or share it in your homeschool circles, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'll see you next week with an interview with Jazz, who moved to Taiwan and is navigating homeschooling in Southeast Asia. See you next week.

Tomika is a homeschool mom of three, currently living in Western New York. As a trained chemist, she brings her curiosity and love for science to her home education practice. In the early years, her homeschool style was Waldorf inspired, making use of art, hands on learning, and living books all while incorporating her family’s multicultural background and desire to know more about the diverse world around them. Now, in the 11th year of homeschooling, she would describe her current style as eclectic and uses various curricula, resources, and the local community to meet the educational needs of her 5th, 8th, and 11th grade children.

Show Chapters

00:00 Preview 02:28 Welcome & New York Homeschool Requirements 08:36 How Tomika Found Her Way to Homeschooling 12:17 From Chemistry to Homeschooling 15:33 Adapting Waldorf for a Multicultural Family 17:42 Military Life & Global Perspective 20:37 Teaching Indigenous & World Cultures 24:16 Homeschooling Evolution: Early Years to Today 29:28 History of the Haudenosaunee 29:31 Current Schedules: High School & Middle School 35:09 Math Curricula Deep Dive 41:32 Math in the Early Years 47:36 Teaching Science: Living Books & Nature Study 57:35 Greatest Challenges & Building Confidence 01:02:09 What Surprised Them Most 01:04:56 Real-World Learning & College Prep 01:12:24 Closing

The Parenting Passageway

Haudenosaunee -- TheGreat Peace

Jake Bowles Book about High School

Living Science Books

Transcript

Tomika (00:00) African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, And then being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.

I really want to know how does this work? How are we learning how to read? I can't just be happy with buying, oh, everybody said to use this curriculum.

just feeling , what's happening out in the world now,

putting the political stuff aside, AI is coming, universities are not being funded. It's just wait, is what am I doing for homeschooling?

we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.

and where they live now.

There's five symbols on that wampum for the Confederacy and that's for the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Onida and Mohawk.

Della (01:01) This week we're meeting Tamika. Tamika is a homeschool mom of three currently living in Western New York. As a trained chemist, she brings her curiosity and love for science to her home education practice. In the early years, her homeschooling style was Waldorf inspired, making use of art,

hands-on learning, and living books, all while incorporating her family's multicultural background and desire to know more about the diverse world around them. Now, in the 11th year of homeschooling, she would describe her current style as eclectic and uses various curriculum, resources, and the local community to meet the educational needs of her fifth, eighth, and eleventh grade children.

Della (02:55) Hi, Tomiko, welcome. And

Tomika (02:57) Hello!

Della (02:58) so you're here. So what I to start out with, because there's so much variation with the requirements are from state to state, I would for you to tell us what state you're in and requirements for that.

Tomika (03:12) I am in New York State the requirements for New York State is that when your child is six, you need to let your local school district know that you're homeschooling. And so that's, send them in every single year, something that's called a letter of intent. And that's basically just saying, hi, we're going to homeschool. then after that, you need to send into your school district an individualized homeschool instruction plan.

which is basically saying these are the subjects that we're doing and you can use a list of resources, some topics that you're covering, and you could say that it's subject to change. there are, it's a very small list of things that are required your homeschool time. So it's the usual, you need to have

some English, language arts, math, social sciences, social studies, science, as you get through the grades library skills. But they have a list of everything that you need for your child to cover from K through 12. then every quarter, you need to send a quarterly report.

to say this is what we've covered, they've had this number, hours of instruction. you could just say we've met the minimum hours of instruction. it's, you don't have to be super detailed about it. then at the end of the year, you send a final assessment. for elementary grades, it can be a written narrative. She says, look, my student's doing great. They really enjoyed this this year. They learned.

whatever they learned this year, just something to say, okay, we did homeschool. It went well. And then for middle school, they need to be tested every other year using a standardized test. I think most people use the California achievement test here, where I am. And then they hit high school, they need to be tested every single year at the end of the year.

you're finished with homeschooling, you've met all the requirements, you let your school district know we're done, can we get what's called a letter of equivalency? And it is up to the school district of whether or not they will give you a letter of equivalency.

Della (05:13) my gosh. Are you allowed to give your student a diploma?

Tomika (05:18) I mean, I guess you could give them a diploma? I don't know if… I don't know who would count it though.

Della (05:24) in my experience, when you start looking at colleges, if that's where you're bound, they don't have the same assessment as far as graduation for homeschoolers that they do for public school kids that have, a diploma. New York seems to me to have

Tomika (05:28) Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Right.

Della (05:45) the most complex.

and highest accountability of education. Do you know anybody, maybe California, that has?

Tomika (05:53) I feel

Pennsylvania, they have to do…

Don't they have to do a, really meet with somebody and portfolios? Is that a requirement? Because I feel you guys do portfolios.

Della (06:02) I don't know. Well, Florida Florida does. Right.

We send our letter of intent like you do. And then you have a couple different options to send in to the county to say, we've met the requirements for homeschooling each year. One of them is to keep a portfolio and have an annual evaluation. And the other is to do standardized testing and send those.

Tomika (06:09) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Della (06:25) results in. then there, but there are loopholes that people use. You can also enroll in an umbrella school, which only takes attendance. And if you're enrolled in an umbrella school, you're considered enrolled in a private school and the same standards aren't, aren't upheld if you are registered with the county as a homeschooler. But we registered with the county as a homeschooler.

and do an annual evaluation. And I really enjoy the annual evaluations for both my kids and myself. they, evaluators, there's such a wealth of information and I gained so much from that. And then also it gives my children the opportunity to go through their work for the year and see how much they've accomplished and share.

Tomika (07:12) Great.

Della (07:14) with someone else the things that they are most proud of.

Tomika (07:18) Right.

I know that on paper it sounds we have the most accountability. I feel it's we have the most busy work. Really, because the school district can't say that what you've done is not enough. Or if you say, we've done this number of hours and we've met what we…

Della (07:26) Mm.

Tomika (07:39) what we've met at least 80 % of what we wanted to do. 80 % of what of what you wanted to do could be almost nothing. Do you know what I mean? So

Della (07:47) Right.

Tomika (07:48) You can tell them these are all, you can write out the list of all the topics that you covered. And even if the topics that you covered are not equivalent to what be covered in a public school for instance, they really cannot come back. And as long as your test scores are looking good,

they're not gonna come back and say , well, I see for algebra, you never got to, I don't know, the quadratic formula. right. But.

Della (08:11) factoring quadratic formulas.

Tomika (08:13) think so here you can put on probation. probation is if you're not turning in your paperwork and if when your students are testing, they're showing no improvement. or they test at below the 33rd percentile. For their grade level.

Della (08:23) Mm-hmm.

that's interesting.

Tomika (08:32) when you're on probation, if you take the next test and they show improvement, even if it is still not amazing, , okay, well, you showed improvement. So move along. So I would say , it does look we have a lot of accountability here, definitely are ways that people get around what's required.

Della (08:52) when we first talked about New York's standards versus Florida standards, I was saying how intimidating and exhausting it is to have to do quarterly reports. And you were , once you get into it, it's not that, not that hard.

Tomika (09:07) Right.

It's not, yeah, it's not that hard. I still don't doing them. You know, I still, I still am kind of , ugh, I have to just tell them , I'm doing it. trust me. I think most beginning homeschoolers, they want to impress the school districts. And they're , we, we've done all of these

topics and we went on all these field trips and my kids were in all these extracurricular classes and then when you start looking at what older homeschoolers are putting on their quarterly reports and it's just the headings of chapters in the books, just a couple of things and it's just okay I don't actually have to be doing

they're not really looking at it, really in depth that. which I'm not saying that you should be try to not give your child an education. Do you know what mean? But it's. Yeah.

Della (09:56) Right. Yeah,

I don't think anybody within our circles is interested educational neglect.

Tomika (10:01) great.

best.

Della (10:04) How did your family find themselves homeschooling?

Tomika (10:09) well, I would say that the seed for me was planted before my daughter was even born. my oldest who is 17, when I was pregnant with her, I was taking a prenatal yoga class and there was this little 13 year old girl who used to come to the yoga class. She was not pregnant. She was just attending, because she was shadowing our yoga instructor

I started talking to her and she was part of this homeschool program where they connected students to professionals in areas that they were interested in going into careers. she was shadowing a prenatal yoga instructor, a pediatrician, and a Montessori childcare

so just started talking to her, was , oh, that is so cool that you get to do this when you're 13, that you actually get to be out in the world and seeing how things work. think that first planned the seed. after my daughter was born, through the attachment parenting groups, I met a lot of homeschoolers and their kids. And I was , oh, this is not so out there. And I love learning.

And I just thought it would be really fun be there and part of that process as my kids were learning.

Della (11:16) That's one of the reasons that I did it too. I taught preschool in college thinking that I would never go back to education. I really enjoyed my work in the preschoolers. it was a wonderfully educationally progressive preschooler. So there was lots of training that they gave to us, which was awesome.

Tomika (11:26) Mm-hmm.

Della (11:37) But when my child was born we also had been exposed to other homeschoolers. that time came where it was ready to send him to school. I was , wait, I want to be the one that teaches him how to read. And I want to be the one that spends my day with him. And I want to be the one that sees those aha moments in his education. And yeah, that's, that's why we.

Tomika (11:50) Right.

me.

Right. Right.

Yeah,

where I was living at the time, the homeschoolers they were open to having the younger kids come and do things. they had, the info on all the little fun places to go and the museums and things that. it was I could send my kids to school.

or we could keep learning at home, going on field trips learning in a fun way. my daughter was also pretty sensitive and shy. so I think at the beginning too, it just seemed she would have needed an extra year anyway. And then once we got into it, we just never stopped.

Della (12:36) Same,

What did you do before homeschooling and how has that influenced your homeschooling?

Tomika (12:45) I had my daughter not too far out of finishing graduate school. I went to graduate school for chemistry. after I graduated with my master's, I stayed on with my PI, she was starting a biotech company. And so I was her director of R &D for a little while.

we were making slides for looking at the interaction of drugs with receptors inside of a phospholipid bilayer.

Della (13:12) Let's pause because

I understand what you're saying. I don't know if everybody understands. So you were making special slides that would hold a fatty layer of membrane so that you could see the chemical interactions that were happening on that slide.

Tomika (13:25) Yes.

Right,

at that membrane. if we go back to high school biology, we learned that if you have your cell, things will come to the cell membrane and might interact protein there. It's the key in the lock. The molecule might hit this protein, the protein will change and then inside the cell, it'll start off a cascade of whatever.

scientists, want to look how exactly are things drugs, how are they interacting with those proteins at the surface? when you have microscope slide and you have a the membrane of a cell or something that is an artificial membrane of a cell.

It's hard to see everything that's going on because there's just so much floating around. But we figured out that if we took a silica glass slide, and if we put some little teeny itty bitty spheres, nanosized silica spheres on top of it, it'd create porous slide almost. you can suspend this layer on top of this porous substrate.

and put a drug that has a dye on it and let it go and interact with the proteins in that fatty, the fossil, the bilayer. you can start to say, what's actually going on here? the idea was that we'd make these slides and sell them to companies that are doing…

these type of studies. Yes. So that's what I did.

And then my husband was also in graduate school and he finishes PhD. it was time for him to go do his postdoc. And he's also a chemist also. He's actually a physicist who ended up going to graduate school for chemistry. So he's now a chemist, a physical chemist.

Della (14:55) and he's also in chemistry.

Tomika (15:05) I was okay, I'm just gonna go with you. I'll find another job. This happened to me in

2008 when there weren't a lot of jobs or a great recession.

Della (15:15) The Great Recession?

Tomika (15:18) So I was , I'm not finding a job. we're gonna have our one kid. We're just gonna have the one kid. And, I wanted to stay home with the kid anyway for a little bit. And then after that,

at the next stop, it'll just be, two years for a postdoc. I'll go back to work. Kid will be ready to go to school. good, good to go. we started on that plan and it ended up, really liked staying home with my daughter and that little seed of, of homeschooling was starting to sprout. and so then I just ended up not ever.

Della (15:49) And how does your background in chemistry affect your homeschooling?

Tomika (15:54) Well, I would say at least for sciences, of course, we're very comfortable in the sciences here. I would say more our whole family has just kind this curiosity about life, how things work. it's kind of maybe got me in trouble a little bit with the homeschooling because

I just am not happy with taking curriculum just off the shelf. I really want to know how does this work? How are we learning how to read? I can't just be happy with buying, oh, everybody said to use this curriculum. I'm just going to get this one and go with it. I want to know, What's the research behind how we're learning certain

subjects is that curriculum following that or is just something else is this just a fad you know

Della (16:41) my gosh, to make it that is just me and my membership subscription. The first post that is available is all the tools for learning and learning how we learn. This is how we learn as things spacing and are leaving memory recall, making connections, dual coding, and, that governs any kind of resource or

Tomika (16:54) Mm-hmm.

Right.

Right.

Della (17:06) Curricula that I'm using are they doing those

things in their curricula because this is what the science says Tells us how we learn

Tomika (17:11) Right.

that really has affected my homeschooling. also I really wanted to research all the different philosophies out there. And it started also when I was pregnant with my daughter, one of the moms who was also pregnant at the time, she owned the Montessori School. Actually, that the 13 year old.

that I told you about was attending, And she pulled me aside. She's , OK, if your kid ever goes to a Montessori school, here are the things to look for, because not all Montessori schools are the same. And that kind of sparks me oh, wait, so what is Montessori? I started looking at what Montessori was. And then I led to Riggio Emilia. then what is Waldorf? And then as I entered the home school space, Charlotte Mason,

and project-based learning and place-based learning. And so I could get into the weeds learning about all the philosophies, But in the end, I really did land Waldorf for the beginning. And although I have to say, because Waldorf was created in

Germany, the history of Waldorf it needed to be adapted for me for not only to be more modern, but also because my family is a multicultural family,

Della (18:14) Yes, I know the history. Yeah.

Yes.

Tomika (18:28) I am Chamorro and Black, so Chamorro are indigenous people of the island of Guam. So Pacific Islanders, which is a territory of the United Chamorros are all American citizens, regardless of whether or not they get to vote for their president, but they are American citizens. Similar to Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands, yes.

Della (18:43) similar to Puerto Rico.

Tomika (18:48) So my mother and father, met in California. They're both in the military. I also spent my childhood in different states and countries. I definitely have a global perspective, I would say, on life in general.

Della (19:04) in the military housing and communities, they are slightly different than what we see in our regular everyday communities in that there's a greater number of diversity, there's a greater tolerance. Can you talk about that aspect?

Tomika (19:25) the US military, they tend to people from lower income places and they also go into minority schools and try to recruit people into military. The result of that is the military is fairly diverse compared to the general population.

you find yourself living in different countries. You have to learn different languages. You do have to learn to be tolerant of other people, different ways of living. I would say most, well, I don't know if that's because of my parents, but most of the people that they surrounded us with were of that mindset. And there are some people who

They're in the military and they're stationed in in Milan, near Milan, and they will never leave the base. You know, there are those people, but I would say at least the people that my parents surrounded us with, they were interested in learning about the place where they lived. And also in school, we have a thing called host nations as part of our curriculum.

part of the DOD schools. I don't know if they still do it, but when I was younger they did. while you're in the country, you learn about the history of the country that you're living in. You learn about the culture, you learn about the food. you take field trips. you're immersed in the culture, you're not just on a little American Island in another country.

at least as a child, they try to get you out and learning about where you are.

Della (20:51) to,

Tomika (20:52) as far as homeschool goes, that means that, for instance, for Waldorf, when all the other kids are doing, grims, fairy tales for the alphabet, right? I'm trying to bring in

African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, also being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.

I'm also gonna bring in stories from the Haudenosaunee, which are the indigenous people that live here the original peoples of Western New York.

Della (21:29) And they're, fascinating culture and history

hugely, they were a huge impact. Franklin was fascinated by their Confederacy, which if you have not heard of Haudenosaunee, it's because that's what they call themselves.

Tomika (21:34) you know, , yes.

Della (21:47) Iroquois is what we're used to hearing, the Iroquois Confederacy, but they call themselves Haudenosaunee. And they have a wampum of the great peace.

I

found out that they bead their history, they don't formally write in the way we write, but this is a way of retaining the history. Well, yes, yes.

Tomika (22:05) Right.

Right, I mean they do now, right, formerly, right, but yeah.

But yeah, originally, and they still do make the wampum. if you go to the Smithsonian DC, they have some of the wampum on display. And here you can see in some of our museums, locally in the area, they'll have wampums that are for different treaties,

Yeah.

Della (22:28) That's the one that I'm

thinking of. have a wampum that has, I think it's a square in the middle and trees on the outside or I may have.

Tomika (22:32) Right.

There's a tree. So the trees

in the middle. There's five symbols on that wampum for the Confederacy and that's for the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Onida and Mohawk. I wouldn't believe it's the Onondaga. They were the that's the middle. That's the

the great tree of peace. And so the idea is when they at war with each other, the great peacemaker came and said, guys, we can't do this anymore. We need to peace. And Taradajo, which was the warring leader, he had supposed to have snakes in his hair. And the grandmother the snakes out of his hair. When he finally agreed to the peace,

the people came together from those five nations and buried their weapons under the Great Tree of Peace. if you drive around here, you'll see in different places, that image of the squares with the tree in the middle, all over Western New York.

Della (23:27) I just say how impressed I am that you remember that story in a way that you can just narrate it. That is so impressive. And you remembered all five nations and just point of clarity. There's six or seven nations now.

Tomika (23:33) Okay

Six. At first six.

Now there's the Tuscarora because originally the Tuscarora, who are actually probably closer to where I live, at one point in time they moved down to Virginia, which I also lived in. And I think when, I'm not sure, maybe it's when the colonists came, they were , let's get out of here. And they came back up. And now the Tuscarora are folded back into the Confederacy.

Della (24:04) I'm so impressed. Excellent. Yes, that's a… Yeah, it's a nice review for me.

Tomika (24:05) Hahaha!

I taught history a couple times.

that's our local history. that I can teach, I can tell you about, but , maybe the history of the indigenous people where you are. Muscogee yeah, I don't have.

Della (24:23) It's the Muscogee, the Appalachee,

the Creek and the Cherokee.

Tomika (24:29) Right, I don't have a deep knowledge of

Della (24:33) Understandably, understandably. What did the progression of homeschooling look like for you? So from when you started, when your oldest was little, and then you have two other children that you folded into the mix, what did it look like when they were little? How did it change? And what does it look like now?

Tomika (24:53) as I said before, when my daughter was younger, I was really drawn to Waldorf. she kind of seemed she was maybe not as ready to start first grade as I think I would have liked her to be. But I think maybe that was probably just natural. some kids, they're really gung ho about starting school and she was.

I just I want to be out in the woods still and doing my crafts and things and so Waldorf was a very nice way to gently Fold her and so we started, doing the the blocks the storytelling the time when she was five or six, when she was six Her brothers were three

and then I had a newborn. that was a lot at one time to be starting school. it's hard to even remember that it was, there was a lot going on. So I did try to stick with the blocks the best I could. I think at that time, schooling had just popped up.

Della (25:33) that's a lot at one time.

Tomika (25:49) and I was able to get in with the co-op price on our schooling for a lifetime membership, which is amazing when I look at what it is now. And I think I also perhaps bought Waldorf Essentials from Melissa, But at the same time too, it's I felt I had to do a lot of changing things around because I wasn't necessarily happy with just doing all

European style we were in a co-op at the time. it was really important for me to get her outside a lot. we did do a lot of going out in the woods. We were part of an ecology class, there's a local ecology organization.

that teaches ecology in schools and in the community and they had homeschool classes. So we also did some of ecology classes with them and then jumped in on any field trips that kind of popped up in our local group. So I feel at the very beginning, was a lot of push to be do this better than public school, I maybe did too much.

because it was , we're doing all the things. then as my middle kid became old enough to I tried to do kind of more family unit blocks, um, in a way that was appropriate for him.

And I did start eventually over the years start relying more on standard curriculum. I think of the beginning especially that was also coinciding with the beginning of Instagram and everybody shows you we're doing Waldorf school and everything is so beautiful and we have all the clay and we have all the watercolors and the beeswax and nobody's really talking about.

how they are also using all about spelling with their Waldorf curriculum, or we're also using formal math curriculum took me a second to kind of catch on to that. we did end up folding in logic of English for reading and

We did some Singapore math and eventually some Beast Academy and Math Mammoth. Actually, we've done a lot of different math curricula, honestly, depending on the child. So we fold in some more traditional math to go with our traditional curricula to go with the Waldorf curriculum.

Della (28:07) this took me a long time to catch up on too. then I did similar to what you did because we need to have daily language arts practice, daily math practice. foreign language is important to me. So we were doing what I call Waldorf block and then Charlotte Mason lessons. then I met Hana who I'm interviewing soon.

Tomika (28:18) Great.

Nothing.

Della (28:33) And

Tomika (28:33) Okay.

Della (28:34) she calls that daily work. in a Waldorf school, they have their main lesson block and then they have their daily work. So they're still doing spelling, math, language arts, et cetera. and yeah, that took me a little while to catch on to too, but we definitely have our main lesson block. And then we have our daily work, which are short.

Tomika (28:41) Braids. Braids.

Great.

Yeah.

Right.

Della (28:57) Charlotte Mason style lessons five to seven minutes with some practice.

Tomika (29:00) Ready.

think that's exactly what we ended up kind of doing. So for instance, we do a little bit that Waldorf of math. So for instance, for second grade, we do a story the folk tales type stories in the second grade.

we do our little folktale story, do something little hands on, but then he'd have just a worksheet of problems from math mammoth. I felt some of these more straightforward were really good for that daily practice. My youngest child, started interning school at the same time, math with confidence.

on the scene and I actually really loved that curriculum for him and that was also very easy to add in with Waldorf. Although I would say he's the least Waldorf-y of them all. And at this point he is in the fifth grade. We have basically dropped Waldorf for him. Yeah.

Della (29:52) Yeah.

So tell me what did your middle school schedule look And you're oldest now and 17 so she's been high school.

Tomika (30:01) My, yeah, she's in high school.

She's doing dual enrollment. she is fairly independent from me. unfortunately, I would say schoolwork ends up being online. So she's doing Mr. D for math. that is a lecture that's online. There's some homework that goes with it.

and then she's in charge of actually grading that herself. For science, she's doing human nutrition at the local community college, and that is a asynchronous online class. it's really involved. My husband who teaches chemistry at our local university, he's , this class is not first year freshman class.

that has been a challenge for She likes it and she's doing well. She's getting an A. But she's really dipping her toes into what a college class could look . we're using a little bit of Students of History, which is a curriculum created by a school teacher,

in the public schools. he has lectures online, he has worksheets. then we can match that with reading we're pulling from different places, but she's fairly independent. she'll be doing her English for this year through dual enrollment also.

then for my middle schooler, he is more independent than my oldest was. for math, he's using math without borders for algebra. we are doing earth science together. for his English language arts, it's a mix of doing brave writer. He's doing sentence diagramming using

the critical thinking companies? then also we do a little bit more writing with grammar using Eben Moore. And I never thought that I'd be somebody who's buying workbooks, but they have definitely come in handy. then we have a co-op. Our co-op has changed.

through the years because the kids in the co-op have gotten older. once the pandemic hit, our co-op went from being an all in person co-op, although I was not in the school at that time, to being online. the way our co-op had functioned for a while was that even post pandemic. We meet for a Zoom class on Fridays. They'd have a rotating schedule.

different people teaching, and then after lunch we'd all meet somewhere in person for a field trip.

My eighth grader…

He's been talking about going to MIT since he was in the seventh grade. Yeah. So we'll see. Yeah, I know. Like, okay, no pressure there, right? So for him, it's , okay, well, if that's what you want to do, I have to be really real with him. you need to be very on top of things for everything, and then it's , we need to start talking about what are you doing outside of homeschool?

Della (32:23) Impressive. Good luck, mama.

Right.

Tomika (32:45) Right.

my husband's yeah, he kind scares me a little bit because are we gonna give, are we gonna be able to give him enough of what he needs to get to where he wants to go? You know, it's, that's a little-

Della (32:47) you

I think you can. have

full faith. I've seen what you've done. just if you don't know already, You can do dual enrollment in a university and not just a community college, which I did not realize. There are all kinds of free classes. MIT has free college courses online. There are lots of different resources for children.

Tomika (32:58) you

Yeah.

Bryce.

Yes.

Right. Yeah, we

started, we definitely started looking at some of those. as we're trying to plan out what he's going to do for high school and thinking about

getting him an opportunity to do research. Like, at the local university.

Della (33:24) That's a great idea. Make

sure he does math through calculus. Yeah.

Tomika (33:30) Yeah, of course. Yeah.

I think that the curriculum that I've picked for him to do for math will set him up really well. Like my husband says, he's not super impressed with the math that most students are coming to college with at the moment. doesn't matter where they're going to school.

My daughter, doesn't seem as burned out from school kids going into college are.

Della (33:51) Yes, we have had the same experience and because of that and because our philosophy in our house and I think most homeschoolers house is mastery, not how hard can we push, how fast can we go. We have taken our dual enrollment classes slower.

Tomika (33:51) Yeah.

Right.

Della (34:11) And he's been more serious than a lot of students in the class. He's actually doing the reading. I was surprised to find out a lot of college kids are not doing the reading.

Tomika (34:21) Right.

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Della (37:39) Let's talk about math curricula. You know, I had a hard time deciding what kind of algebra that we were going to do. feel especially if your child is college bound, a lot of the homeschool curricula, some of the homeschool curricula, particularly for algebra is not enough.

Tomika (37:52) Mm-hmm.

Della (37:55) we used Math U See with my son and I supplemented because it simply is not enough and leaves out quite a bit in the textbook on the flip side for my daughter. You're going to laugh. I picked up the art of problem solving, which if anyone listening doesn't know is very challenging.

Tomika (37:55) Right.

Mm-hmm.

Great.

Della (38:18) I was seeing some college algebra in there. and so I'm , this is too much. mean, I love math, but my children are not going into math. we've dropped that and I'm looking for something that had enough practice, but not as

much practice. I feel the art of problem solving went too fast. You didn't have enough practice for the problems that they did and were too complex. there needs to be more baby steps for most students. in the other side, there's not enough that's gone over the art of problem solving didn't have much on the Cartesian plane.

Tomika (38:42) rates.

you.

Della (39:00) and coordinates, but Math U See didn't have enough of algebraic manipulation. And I'm back to teaching and we're using Making Math Meaningful, it's a workbook for practice, which I feel is just spot on for practice. But Making Math Meaningful is a resource, it's not a curricula.

Tomika (39:00) Right.

Okay.

right now.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Right,

For algebra, found I math without borders.

Della (39:30) Mm-hmm.

Tomika (39:30) And it it uses Prentice Hall Classics algebra.

It very much felt an algebra class kind of similar to what I took when I was in high school. I felt hearing feedback from my husband about how math is going for his students. At first I was is that really a good thing to say? it's math when I in school 20 years ago. kids are coming unprepared

Della (39:44) right?

Tomika (39:53) university to do math in a basic general chemistry class then this is fine. I mean I got a minor in math right so yeah I did. I'm minor in math. really?

Della (40:02) did not know that you minored in math. I minored in chemistry. My major is biology,

specifically marine biology, and I minored in chemistry. And I had had most of my math in high school. did in my college class.

Tomika (40:08) Right.

Right, right. No,

for chemistry, you have to take a lot of math. I took math through calculus in high school. And then when I got to university, the scholarship program that I was in, they required us to take calculus again, no matter what you did in the summer before college. for chemistry at the time, we were required to take through differential equations.

Della (40:35) Okay.

Tomika (40:36) so it turns out in order to get a minor, you only need two other classes. of math. So I had so much math already. I was , okay, yeah, sure. Throw in some statistics, which is weird that it's not required. And, a geometry class, an advanced geometry class. It is weird. It was not. I mean, I, I do feel , yes, that definitely makes sense for biology, especially marine biology.

Della (40:41) because you've had so much math already.

That is weird. It definitely was required for my degree.

Tomika (41:03) But it is also weird that for chemistry, we weren't required to take a statistics class. yeah, so just threw in two other classes and ended up taking that. OK, so back with Math Without Borders is the curriculum that my middle child is using for algebra. it's independent mostly for him.

he basically gives a little lecture. My son, takes notes during the lecture. And then gives you a problem set to do.

Della (41:28) Does it ever do interleaving? it bring those things back up and mix in a variety of problems so there's some assessment?

Tomika (41:35) years.

There is a little bit, because it's a traditional algebra textbook, there are some, at the end of every chapter a word problems section. And so some of those you'll get some things from before. Like, first all, you're talking about the Cartesian coordinates. My son did that in chapter seven.

I'm pretty sure that I've not seen him do that again,

Della (41:58) And how does it do with application? Because one of the things I hear a lot from a lot of adults are , I don't know why we had algebra. We should have had personal. Finance. I never use algebra. And I feel that's a false dichotomy. Yes, we need to be teaching personal finance, but I also think that those adults either don't realize how often they're using algebra. Any formula is algebra. And second,

Tomika (42:17) Right.

Mm-hmm.

Della (42:26) If you're not using algebra, then you probably weren't taught its application and you're missing out because it makes it so easy. I had to make a 70 % solution from a 90 % solution for isopropyl alcohol for a project that we were doing and I used algebra. I mean, you can get there in other ways, but algebra is so easy.

Tomika (42:36) Right.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah. I think that this, I said, the end of each chapter is word problems. And I feel here the word problems are pretty applied. Like you can see them in real life. I should ask my son if he's noticing that they're real life problems.

If somebody didn't want to use this curriculum and they wanted to see more applied problems, I believe that Math Mammoth actually has some books that are just applied math concepts.

Della (43:19) well, and also physics. My son in middle school gave me a lot of resistance. When am I going to use this? This is not applicable. I don't need to learn this because I'm never going to use it. And so for his eighth grade year, all of his math was applied physics. Yeah.

Tomika (43:22) Right.

to read.

Great.

Okay, nice.

Yeah, this instructor on Math without Borders, actually has a physics curriculum too. And I think that one though, it's for high school

for middle school, science, we did a lot of kind of in a Charlotte Mason way, a lot of reading of popular science books to see how some of those things apply. there's so many great books out there, people who are very passionate about subject,

Della (44:08) want to talk about that. Let's talk about math curricula in the early years and then let's talk about how we teach science. So me what you used math curricula in the early years.

Tomika (44:19) math curricula for the early years, did for K through I'd say maybe fourth grade for my older two, did a mix Waldorf and math mammoth. I would just look at what the chapter was for math mammoth. And then I think about , okay, what Waldorf stories, artwork go with that?

we have a story, we do some of the art maybe, maybe we'd make our own manipulatives. then we pull out the Math Mammoth book and they do the paperwork, For my youngest,

We did a lot. actually used your quality of numbers.

Della (44:59) quality of numbers. I love,

love, love that block

Tomika (45:05) And so we did quality of numbers with math with confidence a little bit.

Della (45:09) We did quality

and numbers for all of her first grade year. I started it as a block and I was , this is so amazing for anybody that doesn't know quality of numbers is the opening block for a Waldorf style introduction to mathematics. it's very hands on lots of movement, lots of art, and it is a study of numbers. So usually in mathematics.

Tomika (45:15) Right. Uh huh. Right.

news.

Della (45:36) your top mathematical concepts at a time. You're focusing in on multiplication or fractions, but for quality of numbers, it is the study of numbers. that block was so much fun when we started. It was just , we're going to do it all year round.

Tomika (45:54) Yeah, we definitely, I would say we use that for a good part of the year. I definitely pulled different activities and concepts and for the good portion of first grade,

Della (46:08) What else did you

use? Did you mostly use math mammoth Was that your main curriculum?

Tomika (46:14) yeah, we

use mostly use math now with my daughter. We tried Singapore math a little bit.

Della (46:19) How did those compare?

Tomika (46:20) Singapore Math, comes with a home instruction guide it almost compares with math with confidence little bit more where it has activities that you do a hands-on portion and then it has a workbook that goes with it. Math Mammoth is almost written to the child.

And I think for if you're not doing Woldorf with it, a lot of people would read a little bit of the instructions and then the kids do of the problems. Although one thing I didn't realize when we first started Math Mammoth is woman who wrote the curriculum, she suggests that you don't do all the problems. I did not catch that at first. my daughter was this is so much.

And later I was going back through the introduction and somewhere I had missed that she said, you don't need to do all the problems. fun.

Della (47:08) I think

most curricula will give you more than what you need, and you need to pick and choose what's applicable for your family.

Tomika (47:12) Yes.

Right.

Right. Yeah.

Della (47:17) is that more workbooky or is that more hands-on lab kind of math?

Tomika (47:22) I think it depends on how you use it. in the early years, it's intended to be more hands-on. I want to say that there's different types of Singapore math. Like there may be two or three different workbooks. don't know. But the one that we got, came with the Home Instructor's Guide. And so the Home Instructor's Guide, kind of similar with Math with Confidence, it teaches you how to introduce the concept.

to your it tells you bring out these manipulatives, have them, move things around. whereas I feel Math Mammoth was mostly just workbook-y, it was really great for my second child, because I already felt confident with.

doing the hands-on things and I felt it gave us a little bit more space for the Waldorf stuff. Whereas if you're following the Singapore for instance sometimes it's it's too much I'm trying to do the story and make little clay manipulatives and also do the things that this part that this curriculum says I'm supposed to be doing and then the work so sometimes having a more streamlined

curriculum works if you feel confident in doing the other stuff yourself.

Della (48:22) Right.

we used Miquon when my son was little and that is supposed to definitely be lab, math lab. I Gattegno's work. It, he is a heavy influence in my guides and he uses

Tomika (48:32) Mm-hmm.

Thank you.

Della (48:42) Cuisinaire rods and they are by far my very favorite math manipulative because they are so versatile in the math that they can exhibit and it makes abstract things concrete. But if you're doing the Miquon workbooks, you're using those, it's so easy to fall into just doing the workbook and not the lab.

Tomika (48:44) Right.

Right.

magic.

Right.

Right.

Della (49:05) And I think for beginners,

Tomika (49:05) Right.

Della (49:06) in the beginning, they have a very thick manual that goes over how someone used it as a lab for several years, or maybe it's kindergarten first and second, but it's really thick. It's really dense to read through. that's hard for a beginning homeschooler with a bunch of small children.

Tomika (49:12) Mm-hmm. Right.

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Della (49:28) that's one of the reasons that I wrote my math guides is because I love Jamie York's making math meaningful, but they're written assuming that you know math and they're written assuming that you have some kind of Waldorf teacher training.

Tomika (49:33) Mm-hmm.

And.

Della (49:44) a lot of people were having difficulty from the concepts listed in the resource book and making that happen in fruition. So I wrote out lessons, guides, this is how you can do this.

Tomika (49:53) Great.

Yes,

I think it's really nice for the younger years especially, curriculum that's written for homeschoolers, by homeschoolers who are knowledgeable. Because I feel with the Singapore Math they did have that home instruction manual, but I don't know who that was written Do

I have found early on. I use a lot of information from Carrie from parenting passageway. Yeah, Hana yeah, then Jean from Waldorf inspired homeschooling. I actually took some.

Della (50:18) I don't know her.

with Pepper and Pine.

Tomika (50:29) classes with her to talk about she does planning classes for Waldorf, which is really nice. she goes over what are the concepts you're supposed to be learning. she also homeschooled her kids I think she had three also through graduating. it actually met her in person. She came and did a workshop for the Waldorf Homeschoolers here in our area.

Della (50:35) Nice.

That's

awesome, what a treat.

Tomika (50:51) And

yeah, so that was really nice. she's very helpful to kind of getting that back end. it's interesting, with especially the Waldorf homeschooling that everybody wants to do what the Waldorf schools are doing. one of the philosophies of the Waldorf school is to make a school that's like home.

they're trying to imitate what you're doing and you're trying to imitate what they're doing. And it's just , you already have it at home. one thing I really appreciate Jean saying the very first Waldorf school when it was created, it was created after a war. Germany was completely decimated. The people coming in, they weren't even really teachers. They just had the concepts. playground was in the rubble,

this doesn't have to be perfect. the idea is not that you're following this curriculum that was written by some person decades ago, That the idea is that you're looking at the child in front of you and the world that you're in you're trying to

offer to them, what they need.

Della (51:48) what they need,

what they need for the time, the place, and the development that they are at that time.

Tomika (51:56) Right.

Right,

yes, it's not about , I'm gonna do exactly what they did at the first Waldorf school or with Charlotte Mason. We're gonna read all these old classics that people read in the early, the late 19th century, the early 20th century, no, we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.

and where they live now.

Della (52:23) That's actually beautiful.

let's go back to science and talk about the Charlotte Mason style living books for science that you were talking about. There are so many available now.

Tomika (52:36) There are

so many. So in the very early years, elementary school years, we started with a lot of picture books. There are so many great science-focused picture books. first and second grade were a lot of being outside too.

being out in nature observing what is happening. You could really learn a lot that way. when I was in undergrad, I did a summer research experience at Clemson University. woman who I was doing research under was a educator, her research was in science education. she was trying to write a

first year chemistry curriculum for non-science majors that was almost completely based about water going outside, the pH of water, how does water freeze, how does water melt, that kind of stuck in my head , you could just learn so much science just from observing the world around you.

Della (53:28) Right.

There's also citizen science that you can participate in. There's so many of them, the Monarch Tagging, the Audubon. bird count. we participated one that was taking counts of different

tadpole species in ephemeral ponds. That was a lot of fun. Yeah.

Tomika (53:46) Nice.

Right. We've done the backyard bird count, we try to make use especially in the younger years of all the places that are around us. we're here by Niagara Falls, and, there's lots of tours going on and, we have a local science museum.

Our science Museum has a partnership they also have area, that's somewhere else that they host tours, walking tours. we learn so much just learning, observing the seasons, your phonology will.

Della (54:19) Right.

Tomika (54:20) seeing the changes of what's happening around us. then as we got into middle school, we started reading popular science books. storm in a teacup for physics, right? Or disappearing spoons, , yeah, what's the one that's,

Della (54:31) and disappearing spoon, genie and bottle.

Tomika (54:39) The Neil deGrasse Tyson book. Astrophysics. We read the young people's one, the Astrophysics for Young People book.

Della (54:46) Joy

Hakim has a wonderful series that's at middle school. Yes. And she, she really has a beautiful narrative style of writing. It is talked full of information. Ironically, it covers chemistry, mathematics, physics. It covers the physical sciences. There's nothing in it about the biological sciences.

Tomika (54:50) the story of science. that? Yeah.

Right.

Right, and not, not, right.

We tried Song of the Cell.

Della (55:13) I haven't heard of that one, was it good?

Tomika (55:15) Yeah, it was good. It was thick; definitely for high schoolers. I don't have a young people's version of that yet. Yeah, no, you know what's really interesting? We haven't done a lot.

living science books for biology. A lot. Yeah, go ahead.

Della (55:29) young has,

I don't remember the title, but I will definitely put it in the podcast notes, but it's a new book on animals and the senses that is fascinating. It is absolutely fascinating. Definitely adult high school level, but a wonderful book.

Tomika (55:40) Okay.

Right.

the Storm in the Teacup that we read, That was written for the audience intended to be adults. The Disappearing Spoon, they have a young reader's edition. read one called Furry Logic. it was okay. But that one was fascinating because it was about how animals use physics.

Della (56:07) interesting. We read another adult book that was a living book called What the Robin Knows and it was written by a tracker, which was fascinating. he was saying what you can deduce around you by watching the birds. Also, another biological one was The Hidden Life of Trees I will never feel the same way about plants again.

Tomika (56:08) Yeah.

Right.

yes. Right.

my daughter read Braiding Seatgrass, the young. Yeah, so guess that's not true that we didn't have biological sizes, but yeah. Right.

Della (56:34) Yeah, that's an excellent one.

that's an excellent one as well. So

and I just want to say this doesn't take the place of formal science education, this is in addition to

Tomika (56:47) No,

in addition to, something that I've noticed in the homeschool community is a lot of the moms have a subject that's their special interest my friends who are very into history, or some of them,

Della (56:57) Mm-hmm.

Tomika (57:04) don't use a formal curricula. they have NPR always playing in the background in their house. they just constantly talk history. for our middle school I didn't use a lot of formal curricula with the exception of the ACS, American Chemical Society's middle school chemistry. I love that one.

Della (57:20) Yes, I

Tomika (57:21) we did in some ways use the living books and then go back either a textbook or an online resource to read about the concept more in depth. that was the time we start using more YouTube videos.

because for instance, in furry logic, author would actually reference that were done in academia and we could go look them up and then there would be videos those researchers or something related. And he'd be , oh, okay, I read what this was in the book and, we learned about the concept and then

there it is those are those those are the people and this is their seeing how their research is actually set up

Della (58:02) we do the same thing for the biological sciences. I don't really need a textbook. I love building foundations and scientific knowledge. It is heavy for the teacher-parent.

Tomika (58:06) Right. Right.

Della (58:15) you have to read pages and do preparation and various things is not easy. There is a science curricula based on that. I don't know what it is, but people will ask me what science curricula did you use? I don't need a science curricula. I do have a couple guides. We also did the same thing for chemistry. So I'm currently working on the, I had you check some of the chemistry for me.

Tomika (58:30) Right? Right.

Right. Right.

Della (58:40) and I have a botany guide and a tree guide, but yeah, we have also pulled from various sources and created our own science.

Tomika (58:49) Right. Right. Yeah.

Whereas , you know, when I ask my friends who are authors, who are writers, what are you guys doing for English? They're , I mean, we read books and my kids write, you know, so it's pretty.

Della (59:04) Right. And I'm confident

at English, but I would never rely on my own sources for English. I'm exactly, I've got to have something.

Tomika (59:08) Right. Yes, but I wouldn't exactly. Right. So I'm , no, I need something that's a little more.

for science, we do kind of for the middle school age, we did kind of do it a little more flowy. because of both my husband and I are scientists, you know, our house.

Della (59:25) Right. Same here.

Tomika (59:27) Our house is full of science textbooks. We kind of gravitate to that naturally. My kids got science magazines. It's always funny because my husband will be explaining some concept to my children. And they'll be , oh yeah, and come

back to him with their knowledge and he's wait, where'd you learn? Did mommy teach you that? Like, where'd you learn that? They're no, I read that in a magazine.

Della (59:52) What has been your greatest challenge in homeschooling?

Tomika (59:56) I mean, honestly, I think my greatest challenge would just be confident in what I'm I have a bad habit of looking what it's next. what else is happening out there? just feeling with the world, what's happening out in the world now, we're in this.

putting the political stuff aside, AI is coming, universities are not being funded. It's just wait, is what am I doing for homeschooling? Like, is this going to be enough for the way that the world is changing? I would say that probably actually is my greatest challenge is

feeling confident in what I'm doing.

Della (1:00:32) Yeah, that's

a good sign of a homeschooler. It shows their investment in their children's community and the insightfulness and reflection that you really need to have a good education. And also, I feel like it's a common universal experience.

Tomika (1:00:39) Mm-hmm.

Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, it's all on us. when your child is going through school, you could say they didn't have a really good teacher that year. so they're they're missing out,

No, that was me. Yeah, that was me that year. I mean, I try to keep in mind, I said, because I was a military brat, I definitely had holes in my education growing up. I mean, that's just because, I graduated from a school in Virginia. I never had Virginia State history. because I was not in school when I did not live in that state when when that happened and

not always going from different schools, they don't always line up with what they're teaching. do try to keep in mind one, , hey, you went to public schools and private schools, and had holes in your education. there's no possible way you're going to graduate a kid anywhere, K through 12, that's going to know all the things be a hundred percent

Della (1:01:24) Right.

Tomika (1:01:42) ready for There's always going to be something that they're going to need to learn. so I do try to keep that in mind. And then my husband always tries to tell me, yes, they're doing fine.

Della (1:01:53) Mm-hmm. Yeah, there definitely

is always going to be gaps, always. And not that we shouldn't have some kind of standard, not that we shouldn't try to meet that standard, that there's always going to be gaps.

Tomika (1:01:58) Great.

Right. Right.

Right but it's I know there's gonna be gaps. Yes and you said that we shouldn't lower standards because of that but also maybe that can give me a little

allow me to not stress too much about it. yeah. Right.

Della (1:02:19) It gives you a little grace. Yeah. And well,

the other thing that I want people to know is that as you're going along, a lot of the times when you hit a block and you see a gap, that's your opportunity to fill it. you will have opportunity to fill a lot of gaps. And I think everybody comes out of their education thinking that

Tomika (1:02:36) bright bright bright

Della (1:02:45) there are gaps.

Tomika (1:02:46) it's funny because even just for parenting, I always keep in mind, we're here on our own because my family and my husband's family, they live in a different state or different country. so I do.

tell my children, I tell my oldest, even just as a person, you're being raised mostly by two people. Two people can't possibly fulfill all the needs of one child. As a human species, we were to be in a much larger village. And even

They do have adults around them help a little bit with that. It's not the same if we were in that village. That community, a more community type experience. And I have to think about the same with their education. There's no possible way that

Della (1:03:28) the community, right?

Tomika (1:03:39) just me or even my husband and the little classes that we're outsourcing here and there. There's no way even those things are gonna give them every single possible thing that they could learn or need. And, but hopefully love learning and they do and they know how to learn. So when they see the gaps themselves,

Della (1:03:51) Right?

Tomika (1:04:00) know how to go look for resources to fill those in.

Della (1:04:05) It's really important to not only teach children, but to facilitate them knowing how to teach themselves how to learn. And hopefully we're all raising lifelong learners.

Tomika (1:04:18) Yes.

Della (1:04:19) Okay, last question for today. What most surprised you about homeschooling?

Tomika (1:04:25) I think maybe for me it was how much there is available my community or region that could help aid in homeschooling. There's just so much available that you could really never be home.

There's so many people who are willing to help. I don't know if that's partially something that has developed after the pandemic. But there's so many people who are supportive of homeschooling in a way that I wasn't really expecting. who are willing to help out and sometimes you get paid,

and people who are really excited to see us, to see the homeschoolers coming you want to learn about place that I work? to learn what I do? Sure, come I would I don't really get a lot of negative feedback. And I think maybe I thought it was…

gonna be a little more, taboo or whatever to be over homeschoolers. But people are just , oh yeah, that makes sense. Good for you.

Della (1:05:24) Yeah, I think in this day and age, the real challenge is not what it was in several generations back for homeschooling. Several generations back, there were only a few things available. You were criticized if you were out and about during school hours or at least questioned, and they really clung close together. Now, the challenge is there is an

Tomika (1:05:44) Thank you.

Mm hmm.

Della (1:05:51) overwhelming amount available to homeschoolers, overwhelming amount of curricular choices, resource choices, programs, classes, after school activities, or extracurricular activities. you can't do it all. You just cannot. And so you really have to guard your time for academics, particularly in the middle school, high school times. And

Tomika (1:05:54) Yes, it is.

No. Right. Yes.

years.

Della (1:06:18) You have to pick and choose. You can possibly do things seasonally, we'll do horseback riding in the fall when it's not really hot in the summer, and we'll do music lessons in the summer when it's really… You can pick and choose and do things seasonally, but you just simply can't do it all at the same time.

Tomika (1:06:20) Right.

Thank

No,

I think especially, you said, as the kids get older, time to really start focusing on what, at least for us, that's how we approach this. It's , it's time to start focusing on what you need for the next step. Like we do still want you to enjoy your education, but also…

Like we may not have time for all the extracurriculars if you're taking a really hard dual enrollment class this semester, then also starting to think about what are ways that you can get experiences in the things that you want to be doing for college or as a career after college.

Della (1:07:14) Let's

talk about that for just a second. There is a great book, Jake Boles believe, I think the title is College Without High School, but I could have that wrong. But it is basically talking about facilitating the same kind of theme that we did in our early years with education, but doing so in a way that preps us for

college or trade or whatever your next step is. And you're talking about experience in different fields. I want people to know what opportunities are available.

Tomika (1:07:43) Right.

I can only really talk about what is, one is here and two, what my kids are interested in. my oldest, she has really loved art and she loves thinking about public transportation and urban planning So maybe the

thing that makes the most sense is to do art classes outside of our homeschool which she does. And then through that we were able to have her join an art program where she gets to not only take classes but they also bring in local artists to give workshops the

kids who are in that program, workshops on their art. They also coordinated their own art show. They put together a panel having artists who work in the health industry. people who do medical illustration, things like that come in and have a panel to discuss with kids who are interested in

place where art and science meet as a career. So there's some of these opportunities that are all already set out there. Also we have

organizations that do tours around the city. she's also looking at maybe volunteering to do one of these architecture history tours for her, at her age, she's not going to be giving the tour, volunteering in some capacity. Our local university has summer we've applied to those. We'll see if that comes through for the summer.

where she would get to actually work with architects at the university and then also learn about architecture of the city. And then for my middle schooler, feel because science is where my husband and I, that was our careers we have a much better handle on that. So for my…

Middle schooler, know that he can do research at the local university. we just have to find a professor who does research in an area that he's interested in who would be to take them on. And then our local university has tons of outreach to try to get sciences and engineering out into the community. He does a robotics program that is

located at the university. as we go, being curious, , what's out there? So for my daughter, that was a little bit more out of my wheelhouse, luckily we have the Internet and I could just look for my city name and subjects of things that she's interested in and kind of

keeping updated on what's happening in my city. So for instance, there's going to be an urban planning, conference, talks open up to the community We can go there and then we learn about what people are doing around us, what opportunities there are to volunteer.

if there is some political activism that's happening related to what she wants to do, we can work with this group, and volunteer. then same for my son, was going to engineering. I just try to keep updated on what's going on around me. then it becomes easier to find opportunities.

as you start just going to things and find out who's doing what around you. And most people are really very excited to see young people interested in what they're doing. So if they can't necessarily bring your child on to what they're doing, they most likely know somebody who could they who they could point you to. this person who has

program that your child can start getting into or this person might be open to having your kid come do research with them.

Della (1:11:26) We did a very similar thing with my son whose interest was photography, as you know, and we tapped in in similar ways. joined wildlife photography or nature photography groups and I set up sessions for him to shoot with different.

Tomika (1:11:32) Mm-hmm.

No.

Della (1:11:44) nature photographers in our area. They were happy to have a young person that was interested in photography go with them. That opened up other opportunities. I took him to photographic workshops and in the end we have filmed with some amazing photographers because of that. David Moynahan who has work in the Smithsonian

Tomika (1:11:50) Great.

mean, you know.

Della (1:12:10) John Spore, who is famous for Florida, and another one, John Moran, that did the Springs photography. also worked with David and even a National Geographic photographer, Joel Satori, had come down locally to our aquarium for his photo arc and my son spent two days.

volunteering and shooting with him, which is interesting because one of the resources that I used for his photography education was from the great courses and it was all Joel Sartori's lecture. And when I said he's watched every single one of your lectures, he was like, really? They're so boring. He watched all of them. I was over and over again. He's watched your lectures and

Tomika (1:12:47) No.

huh.

Yeah.

Della (1:13:03) I think the idea is to do what you're talking about, put your foot in, join groups, look for opportunities in doing so. Photography is a really expensive hobby. The good cameras, the DSLRs are well out of my price range. what we did to facilitate that is that our area has a large artist.

Tomika (1:13:17) Yeah.

Thank you.

Della (1:13:29) venue each year of arts and crafts people craftsman people and they have a children's tent available and so he would sell his photography to pay for better photography equipment and that's how we funded it. For my daughter it's the same thing when she was young I told you she was really interested in animals.

Tomika (1:13:31) Thank

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

this week.

Della (1:13:54) And I knew we had to direct that energy when one time she brought me a baby squirrel that she had climbed up into a tree to see the squirrel nest and found a baby squirrel and brought me a baby squirrel. And I was , go put it back in the nest. And we need to do something. We need to direct this energy. And so we found.

Tomika (1:14:06) no!

Right. Right.

Della (1:14:19) a local wildlife rehabilitation center that she was eight when that happened that initially we went together one day a week and volunteered for an hour at that facility. The facility owner and her daughter really made a connection and that's a beautiful thing about homeschooling the community connections and now she

Tomika (1:14:23) Mm-hmm.

you

Della (1:14:43) volunteers three hours, two days a week, and it's a drop-off pickup situation. And she has learned so much from that experience.

Tomika (1:14:51) Mm-hmm.

Nice.

Della (1:14:53) Yeah.

Tomika (1:14:54) Yeah.

Della (1:14:54) We

did cover a lot, but it was really nice.

Tomika (1:14:59) Yes, I agree.

Della (1:15:02) Well,

so much for joining me today, Tomika, I really enjoyed our conversation. Is there any place that you are online that people can find you?

Tomika (1:15:06) I enjoyed it too.

Yeah, people can find me on Instagram at TamikaRCV and just know that I'm not there very often. trying to break up with Metta, but I do try to check in every now and again.

Della (1:15:23) Okay, I'll

put those in the podcast show notes and thank you.

Tomika (1:15:27) That's all. Nice. Thank you.

Jess is a former interior designer turned homeschool mother. For her thesis, she studied play based, inclusive learning spaces and tries to carry that knowledge forward into the homeschooling of her two daughters and her greater community. She enjoys quilting and other crafts, being in nature, all the books and embracing the whimsy of childhood. She lives in Las Vegas, Nevada with her family.

Show Chapters

00:00 Opening 03:18 Homeschool Requirements for Nevada 06:33 Path to Homeschooling 16:22 Before Children 21:59 Book Club 27:02 Curricula Choices 42:00 Greatest Challenge 46:19 Time in Homeschooling 53:00 Time Management in Homeschooling 55:21 Schedule 57:48 Time Schooling 01:00:59 Homeschool Surprises

Links to Curricula Discussed

Right Start

Michael Clay Thompson

Blossom and Root

Rooted in Language

Activity Cards

Jazz (00:00) there's always hope. There is always a small moment.

life is always happening somewhere and even if it's just a minute or two, you know, it's still happening. So I do try to prioritize the joy.

Hana (00:15) I think my greatest, this is like really kind of silly, but I think my greatest challenge in homeschooling is me. I am the greatest challenge.

Della (00:24) Hello, friend. This is Della from the Beauty of Play hosting a brand new podcast all about homeschooling.

Tomika (00:33) African American folk tales, maybe Mexican mythology, also legends from Guam, then being indigenous to someplace else, it gives me a greater appreciation for people who are indigenous from here.

Jess (00:50) Post-its, so many post-its, and I know that some of my friends have taken my post-it system and it has been successful for their children. visualizing a lot of things.

Della (01:05) I'm interviewing people just like you, homeschoolers from all walks of life,

Hana (01:12) But let me tell you, when it was right for them to be on their own, my heart was so at ease.

I just felt like it was right. I didn't have to go through that stress and my child didn't have to go through that stress and they do get over it and we do get over it. I just wasn't prepared for

Jazz (01:31) it's so personal to us

and listening to the kids talk to other people about homeschool. And I always hear that pause because it's like, makes sense to us, but would it make sense to this

Della (01:46) finding out how they came to homeschool, how they choose curricula, what styles of homeschooling work for their family.

and how they navigate life.

Tomika (01:55) we're gonna look at the child in front of us in the world around us and try to give the education that they need for who they are.

and where they live

Jess (02:07) I would say what most surprised me was…

how little you are home when homeschooling.

Della (02:17) Join us on May 18th for season one of A Homeschooling Journey.